Doping in other sports

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brodiej

Veteran
Location
Waindell,
Just read "inverting the pyramid" by Jonathan Wilson
Interesting history of football tactics
He raises the point that total football as practised by Ajax in the 70s was built on the need for extra energy to keep pressing gor 90 minutes

This was achieved, he argues, by doping.

Of course the modern Barcelona way came from that Ajax team via Michels and Cruyff taking their philosophy to Spain.

Here's a quote from the book

"We could play sixty minutes of pressing,’ Swart said. ‘I’ve never seen any other club anywhere who could do that.’ Within a few years, Lobanovskyi’s Dynamo certainly could, but there was no one else, which raises the question of how they were able to maintain that intensity for so long. Both Ajax and Dynamo invested significantly in the science of preparation, working on nutrition and training schema, but both also looked to pharmaceutical means.
In an interview he game to the magazine Vrij Nederland in 1973, Hulshoff spoke of having been given drugs ahead of a match against Real Madrid six years earlier: ‘We took the pills in combination with what we always called chocolate sprinkles,’ he said. ‘What it was I don’t know, but you felt as strong as iron and suffered no breathlessness. One disadvantage was you lost all saliva, so after thirty-five minutes of the game I was retching.’
Salo Müller, who was Ajax’s masseur between 1959 and 1972, admitted as much in his autobiography, published in 2006, and revealed that Hulshoff and Johnny Rep had both come to him with concerns over pills given them by John Rollink, the club doctor. Over time, Müller collected pills Rollink had distributed from other sportsmen and had them analysed. ‘The results were not a surprise to me,’ he wrote. ‘They ranged from painkillers, muscle relaxants and tranquilising pills to amphetamine capsules.’
Even before joining Ajax, Rollink had form. The first drugs scandal to hit Dutch sport came at the 1960 Rome Olympics, when a female swimmer took two prescriptions from a team-mate’s bag and gave them to the press. A doctor said one was indicative of doping, pure and simple, and that the other was likely to be part of a programme of drug use: Rollink’s signature was on one of the prescriptions. He later left the Dutch Cycling Union when doping controls were instituted, and said that Ajax would have refused to comply had doping controls been brought in to Dutch football. He even admitted to taking amphetamines himself if he was working late. It may have been the systematic drugs programmes of the Soviet bloc that attracted the greatest attention, but they were certainly not the only ones at it.
Michels was the father of Total Football, and he carried it on at Barcelona"
 

400bhp

Guru
Interesting column on doping in athletics...

http://www.rte.ie/sport/athletics/2014/0808/635892-column-gillick-discusses-doping-in-athletics/

"When I was in the States for nine months, I never saw one of the Caribbean athletes tested."

I think that's a very much "read between the lines" comment.

I think athletics stinks to high heaven. I can't believe Gatlin is still running.

Risk vs reward. Low risk of being caught x short ban if caught. Reward is hardly affected by a ban. 2 year ban is a feckin joke.
 

Joshua Plumtree

Approaching perfection from a distance.
If anyone really thinks football is primarily a game of skill, just look at the type of young kids selected for Youth Academy teams (especially in this country).

Like most sports, the game is based on pace, power, balance and stamina. If you lack those attributes, no matter how skilful you are, the chances of making the cut are next to zero.

You could argue that players like Iniesta and Zavi disprove this, but both these players possess great natural upper body strength and are extremely quick over the first five or six yards (at least they were!). Put either in a local pub team and everyone would be commenting on how fast and sharp they were.

So, in answer to the question, any footballer would gain a perceivable short term advantage from doping. :sad:
 

Beebo

Firm and Fruity
Location
Hexleybeef
This graphic taken from the link posted by @Crackle is quite sad. Especially if historic drug use improves future performance.
4 out of 5 all time 100m sprinters have failed tests. The only one who hasnt is Bolt, and if he ever fails the sport will be rocked to its core.
_78049457_top5_100m_web_2.jpg
 

Hont

Guru
Location
Bromsgrove
The only one who hasnt is Bolt, and if he ever fails the sport will be rocked to its core.
When you look at that graphic, he shouldn't really need to fail for people to realise what's going on. For the sport's sake, I think it would actually be a good thing for Bolt to get found out, otherwise the situation is never going to change.
 

smutchin

Cat 6 Racer
Location
The Red Enclave
When you look at that graphic, he shouldn't really need to fail for people to realise what's going on. For the sport's sake, I think it would actually be a good thing for Bolt to get found out, otherwise the situation is never going to change.

Hmmm. The most successful athlete in his field and yet the only one to have "never tested positive". Why does this remind me of something?
 

oldroadman

Veteran
Location
Ubique
Hmmm. The most successful athlete in his field and yet the only one to have "never tested positive". Why does this remind me of something?
Someone famous for his "lunch box"? Who was eventually pinged, but only long after all the major successes? Almost as if the authorities didn't really want to find out?
 

resal

Veteran
Someone famous for his "lunch box"? Who was eventually pinged, but only long after all the major successes? Almost as if the authorities didn't really want to find out?
Christie was positive at Seoul. Sadly his GB team reps managed to talk for long enough until some of the panel fell asleep and then a vote was taken and he was let off. Dirtiest race in History - Richard Moore. I disliked his book on Millar and quite a lot of Moore's other work on cycling but really liked how he came at Athletics. Back into the time of Andy Norman and Frank Dick here. The model for British sporting Federations not wanting to find positives.

If you acknowledge that the domino that is Christie is over, it knocks down quite some chain. 'Nuff respect.
 

oldroadman

Veteran
Location
Ubique
Christie was positive at Seoul. Sadly his GB team reps managed to talk for long enough until some of the panel fell asleep and then a vote was taken and he was let off. Dirtiest race in History - Richard Moore. I disliked his book on Millar and quite a lot of Moore's other work on cycling but really liked how he came at Athletics. Back into the time of Andy Norman and Frank Dick here. The model for British sporting Federations not wanting to find positives.

If you acknowledge that the domino that is Christie is over, it knocks down quite some chain. 'Nuff respect.

Yep, read that, quite a piece of investigative journalism. The way that a sport simply buried things in pursuit of the dollar and image. Makes you wonder how far it all spread and the lengths they would go to protect their competitors. If you don't check properly and rigorously, you don't have a problem...! Too much money and career investment to risk bad publicity and sponsorship being pulled.
 

resal

Veteran
Yep.....Too much money and career investment to risk bad publicity and sponsorship being pulled.
Hold the mirror up to .........

On two occasions I was at events where Christie was present. At one, he was there as alpha male with his pack of Nuff Respect. This was at a time after Seoul and before his positive that stuck. At the time I had no idea he had tested positive at Seoul. The effect he and his little group had on me was that contrary to their name, I lost all respect for Iwan Thomas and the like.

I measured my own retreat to that of others present, whose moral code I also valued, who independent of myself were moved in a similar manner. The only thing that has shocked since amongst the Brit sprint men is how few of them have gone positive.

On learning that Jonathan Edwards had Andy Norman as his commercial manager I again lost something from life I doubt I will get back. Norman is the guy who allegedly had bent coppers on hand to provide clean urine samples at track meets. Read the broadsheet obits - truly scary.

It is now that I move across to Brit Cycling. Why would anyone running a program where "we ride clean" was a foundation stone, then employ Yates, Leinders or Sutton ? You can't occupy the space that says you have the best managed program on the planet and have characters like these stumble across centre stage, without senior management being aware of their background. Those two events are the classic Venn diagram - mutually exclusive. You can have one or the other, but you can't have both. Somewhere, somebody is being very devious and somewhere else, somebody is very conveniently pretending to be too dull to work out what is really going on.
 

oldroadman

Veteran
Location
Ubique
So far as I know, Mr Yates and Dr Leinders were Sky staff, and never employed at BC, or am I wrong? Mr Sutton is a BC employee, but so far as I am aware has never failed a test (the LA argument could be applied, I know) whilst competing. He now appears to be an extremely successful coach. No "programme" BC athlete (under the care of the BC coaches) has produced a non-negative test either in or out of competition, and I would hope they are very carefully monitored.
What we have to recognise is that there is a big disconnect here, Sky support BC and a have a Pro team under completely separate management. Mistakes have been made at Sky, but they are hardly like the "mistakes" that other teams/riders have made, are they?
Rather than hark back to what MAY have happened in the past - and a distant one at that - looking forward is surely the positive view? Let's keep our glass half full , not half empty.
Right, off now to be blown about a bit on the local roads, think I'll stay in the valleys today, those hill tops look mighty breezy!:sweat:
 

resal

Veteran
Mr Sutton is a BC employee, but so far as I am aware has never failed a test (the LA argument could be applied, I know) whilst competing. He now appears to be an extremely successful coach. No "programme" BC athlete (under the care of the BC coaches) has produced a non-negative test either in or out of competition,......

Sutton was Winn's Coach and managing the team when Winn tested positive in Guadelope. Winn came back to the UK and again tested positive in a warm up race to the National Champs. Both positives were treated as "one" as they were allowed to be. The contemporary excuse of choice favoured by many a doper at the time was "contaminated supplement". Sadly, many who used it at the time later tested positive again, however Winn was let off after such pressure was brought to bear by staff from BC on the WCU that caused one of the panel members hearing Winn's appeal to walk out and resign. Winn was let off and never tested positive again. The supplement he stated he was using was a slimming aid.

And now, recently, JTL talking about other high profile riders receiving letters but them being kept out of the news. It looks like the same story is still in play.
 
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oldroadman

Veteran
Location
Ubique
Sutton was Winn's Coach and managing the team when Winn tested positive in Guadelope. Winn came back to the UK and again tested positive in a warm up race to the National Champs. Both positives were treated as "one" as they were allowed to be. The contemporary excuse of choice favoured by many a doper at the time was "contaminated supplement". Sadly, many who used it at the time later tested positive again, however Winn was let off after such pressure was brought to bear by staff from BC on the WCU that caused one of the panel members hearing Winn's appeal to walk out and resign. Winn was let off and never tested positive again. The supplement he stated he was using was a slimming aid.

And now, recently, JTL talking about other high profile riders receiving letters but them being kept out of the news. It looks like the same story is still in play.
I can only acknowledge your apparent superior information. Being out of the country a lot it's easy to miss this sort of thing - was it ever in the public domain?
Possibly Mr Tiernan-Locke is referring to the possibility of riders missing an out of competition test (which can happen) and getting a letter pointing out their error - no-one wishes to get caught on the "three missed out of competition tests=non-negative" rule. If that is the case then it's simply good management by whichever team or programme is required to take action, in my view. I rather sceptical of what Mr T-L says, after his odd assertion about the consumption of vast quantities of alcohol was a factor in the recent unfortunate (for him) case.
 
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