Do clip in shoes really give that much of an advantage?

[tyred]

Perhaps it's time for the shoe ruse

I have seen many threads on this and other cycling forums about cleat setup and the pain/problems caused by incorrect setup. I have seen many threads about clipless moments. I have seen occasional threads about people wondering how to get their feet into toe clips but that is easy with a little practice. I have never seen any threads about people unable to set their flat pedals up correctly! I have also seen many threads about people with cold feet in the winter. Clipless shoes seem to have gaps in the soles. I can ride with hiking boots in winter and have never experienced cold feet.

Of course there are advantages to clipless pedals, the pros wouldn't use them otherwise. But to me, and I suspect most riders of average ability, we will never be able to extract any real benefit. Besides, the flat pedals fitted to most bikes as standard are usually horrible hard plastic things which offer little grip. I have never had a problem with my feet slipping off quality pedals. I do ride with toe clips on both my fixed gear bikes for a little extra security but I never feel the need to pull them tight. I know that donning a pair of clipless pedals will not allow me to sprint past Lance Armstrong.

 

[Speedywheelsjeans]

But then we have the real gems - I was particularly taken by the explanation of clipless shoes having stiffer soles, then road shoes stiffer again but, but best of all, road specific pedals having a larger platform. Hmmm, for pedal efficiency you need a larger platform that is a rigid as possible...now what does that bring to mind???

So if you push a crank with a flexible foam tube it creates the same force as pushing a crank with a rigid I section beam? The I section beam will transfer more of its potential energy through the crank than the foam which will lose a lot of it through flex. Thats the idea behind rigid soles being more efficient than a flexible trainer. The difference between rigid soles and trainers isnt super human, but certainly enough to create a better pedaling efficiency and an increase in power transfer, any small edge you can get is important in my opinion. It depends what your aim is, if your just doing it as a hobby then you can probably ignore clipless as it doesnt actually have any effect on fitness or enjoyment. but if your trying to be competitive then I would say going without clipless isnt a good idea if you want to stay with the pack. But you MUST learn to use them for them to make the difference!

I dont run them on my MTB's unless I am doing some serious cross country, but I wouldnt ride a road bike without them, I dont think clipless users should assume they are any better than those who dont use them though.

The larger platform stuff is rubbish! I agree there.

 

[MacB]

Different risk set so hard to say. I still have marks on my legs from trying to ride with flat pedals on my MTB but then again I'm a fairly hard core road rider. I'm aware of people who have fallen off their bikes when they've become unfooted riding with flat pedals on bumps etc & one person sustained serious injuries. Though it wouldn't surprise me to find these people riding with totally inappropriate shoes like my leather sole boating shoes (they have almost 0 grip on any wet metal or plastic, including soft rubber).

It was tongue in cheek but you've got me going now. Next argument - nearly all solo falls are due to poor rider risk assessment. If it's been frosty overnight then falling on black ice is your own fault, if you ride over stuff that causes you to lose your feet, or fall off, then that's your own fault. if you ride at speeds that exceed your skills level then the consequences are your own fault.

So my feet stay on the pedals because I am risk averse - I can live with that Perhaps that's where people go wrong, they think people like me would be less risk averse with the right equipment, thus underestimating my natural cowardice.

for example, the distance you could put over me on the flat or going uphill would be considerable. But it would be dwarfed by the distance you could sting me for going downhill. Even as a kid I was always the last one down the hills and it's not changed

 

[Speedywheelsjeans]

Perhaps it's time for the shoe ruse

I have seen many threads on this and other cycling forums about cleat setup and the pain/problems caused by incorrect setup. I have seen many threads about clipless moments. I have seen occasional threads about people wondering how to get their feet into toe clips but that is easy with a little practice. I have never seen any threads about people unable to set their flat pedals up correctly! I have also seen many threads about people with cold feet in the winter. Clipless shoes seem to have gaps in the soles. I can ride with hiking boots in winter and have never experienced cold feet.

Of course there are advantages to clipless pedals, the pros wouldn't use them otherwise. But to me, and I suspect most riders of average ability, we will never be able to extract any real benefit. Besides, the flat pedals fitted to most bikes as standard are usually horrible hard plastic things which offer little grip. I have never had a problem with my feet slipping off quality pedals. I do ride with toe clips on both my fixed gear bikes for a little extra security but I never feel the need to pull them tight. I know that donning a pair of clipless pedals will not allow me to sprint past Lance Armstrong.

The good thing is that they do make clipless with a lot of float for those who cannot setup correctly. Personally I ride with a fair amount of float just because I like my knees and I dont want to risk damaging them.

The biggest thing to stress to those using clipless is that if your going to invest £100-£300 in pedals and shoes... SPEND THE TIME LEARNING TO USE THEM! When I got mine I rode the same 1 mile stretch for hours getting a feel for them, trying to extract power through the whole cycle, watching videos on foot position and trying to replicate how it works, climbing hills using only spinning techniques. Im still learning to pedal efficiently even now,
so the question asked by the OP was do they make a difference, undeniably yes.. if your using them correctly. But it takes 100's of miles work to get in a position where your actually making a difference to your cycling as you need to build new pulling muscles in your legs too that have probably never done any cycling work before, this alone takes months.. if not years.

 

[MacB]

The good thing is that they do make clipless with a lot of float for those who cannot setup correctly. Personally I ride with a fair amount of float just because I like my knees and I dont want to risk damaging them.

The biggest thing to stress to those using clipless is that if your going to invest £100-£300 in pedals and shoes... SPEND THE TIME LEARNING TO USE THEM! When I got mine I rode the same 1 mile stretch for hours getting a feel for them, trying to extract power through the whole cycle, watching videos on foot position and trying to replicate how it works, climbing hills using only spinning techniques. Im still learning to pedal efficiently even now,
so the question asked by the OP was do they make a difference, undeniably yes.. if your using them correctly. But it takes 100's of miles work to get in a position where your actually making a difference to your cycling as you need to build new pulling muscles in your legs too that have probably never done any cycling work before, this alone takes months.. if not years.

But this and your last post kind of proves my point...it takes far more effort than most will ever give to get the potential out of this equipment.

I have read so many of these threads on the net and I almost never see people of my sort of viewpoint claiming there are no benefits to be had. What we do claim is that the benefits aren't that clearcut for your average non-racing cyclist.

Yet I see ludicrous claims from the 'clipless are best' camp, things as crazy as it's impossible to ride a long way on flat pedals. But the general thrust is one of 'night and day' difference and that once on clipless you'll never go back. Both of these statements are patently untrue and statistically nonsense. They also support their viewpoint with all sort of dire warnings about using flat pedals, none of which have come true for me. My knees are fine, my feet stay where I put them, my shins are unscarred, I can get up hills, I enjoy my cycling, I don't get sore feet and I feel safe.

As I've posted before one thing I won't do again is ride in flip-flops, that didn't work out too well and I did feel unsafe

 

[400bhp]

I'm impressed by the level of 'anecdata' on this thread, it has surpassed other clipless threads in short order. The one coming closest to accuracy is GrasB but his level of cycling, and those he references, is so far beyond most of us, and always will be, that comparisons don't mean much. If that's the sort of cyclist you are, or have ambitions to become, then you need all the kit. As usual Norm gives some realworld data and admits that it's not possible to refine the exact contribution from the pedals.

But then we have the real gems - I was particularly taken by the explanation of clipless shoes having stiffer soles, then road shoes stiffer again but, but best of all, road specific pedals having a larger platform. Hmmm, for pedal efficiency you need a larger platform that is a rigid as possible...now what does that bring to mind???

I also love the idea that clipless aren't just more efficient but they are SAFER as well, that actually made me chuckle.

Most of us, definitely including me, have nothing like the physical attributes or mental dedication to maximise the potential of even the most basic equipment. This is pretty much true across all sports/hobbies and the lower down the food chain you are the less performance you are able to extract from kit.

Use whatever you want, spend whatever you want(I do), but give the marketing nonsense a rest as a means of self justification.

The voice of sense.

 

[Speedywheelsjeans]

But this and your last post kind of proves my point...it takes far more effort than most will ever give to get the potential out of this equipment.

I have read so many of these threads on the net and I almost never see people of my sort of viewpoint claiming there are no benefits to be had. What we do claim is that the benefits aren't that clearcut for your average non-racing cyclist.

Yet I see ludicrous claims from the 'clipless are best' camp, things as crazy as it's impossible to ride a long way on flat pedals. But the general thrust is one of 'night and day' difference and that once on clipless you'll never go back. Both of these statements are patently untrue and statistically nonsense. They also support their viewpoint with all sort of dire warnings about using flat pedals, none of which have come true for me. My knees are fine, my feet stay where I put them, my shins are unscarred, I can get up hills, I enjoy my cycling, I don't get sore feet and I feel safe.

As I've posted before one thing I won't do again is ride in flip-flops, that didn't work out too well and I did feel unsafe

Im quite a cycling fanatic, I ride hard rides regularly, race etc so for me I sing the praises of clipless, i genuinely feel I am getting added benefits from my clipless as opposed to flats.
But what you've said is pretty much on the ball, if your just a general commuter or ride for pleasure then why bother. Some people like to run them in those circumstances, and there's nothing wrong with that either, I use them on commutes too, but its force of habit... I have had shin bashes and feet slips with flats (mainly MTB though on wet and rough terrain).. but also clipless moments, plus ive had a cleat wear right out to the extent that when i got out of the saddle to sprint up a short hill my foot pulled clean out and I went scraping across the floor, so none are any safer or any more dangerous than the other for sure.

So ultimately it does come down to what your first said saying use whatever you want and feel comfortable with... But as to my original reply to you I was just highlighting that stiff soles do make a difference IF you learn to use the pedals properly, otherwise if your comfortable in trainers and flats who's to say your doing it wrong.

 

[MacB]

Im quite a cycling fanatic, I ride hard rides regularly, race etc so for me I sing the praises of clipless, i genuinely feel I am getting added benefits from my clipless as opposed to flats.
But what you've said is pretty much on the ball, if your just a general commuter or ride for pleasure then why bother. Some people like to run them in those circumstances, and there's nothing wrong with that either, I use them on commutes too, but its force of habit... I have had shin bashes and feet slips with flats (mainly MTB though on wet and rough terrain).. but also clipless moments, plus ive had a cleat wear right out to the extent that when i got out of the saddle to sprint up a short hill my foot pulled clean out and I went scraping across the floor, so none are any safer or any more dangerous than the other for sure.

So ultimately it does come down to what your first said saying use whatever you want and feel comfortable with... But as to my original reply to you I was just highlighting that stiff soles do make a difference IF you learn to use the pedals properly, otherwise if your comfortable in trainers and flats who's to say your doing it wrong.

Which all makes perfect sense to me

 

[Norm]

The thing is would the likes of norm likely go out & get per-pedal plots of their power production?

I think we can probably knock that one on the head with a "No chuffing way", just in case anyone was wondering.

As I've posted before one thing I won't do again is ride in flip-flops, that didn't work out too well and I did feel unsafe

Now there's a dangling hook, fully baited with a wriggling worm, just waiting for me to come along and say "TELL ME MORE!!!"

 

[MacB]

I think we can probably knock that one on the head with a "No chuffing way", just in case anyone was wondering.


Now there's a dangling hook, fully baited with a wriggling worm, just waiting for me to come along and say "TELL ME MORE!!!"

It's really not that interesting Norm, I just popped to the corner shop and happened to have been slouching around in flip-flops at the time. I can vouch for the fact that a flip-flop will stick to a pinned pedal but your foot won't necessarily stay with the the two of them. Nothing dramatic just a half arsed attempt to relocate my foot and I managed to kick the flip-flop off the pedal and under a passing car, I also had a bit of a wobble at the same time.

Entirely foreseeable and entirely my fault and I felt an arse having to scamper on to the road to retrieve my flip-flop.

 

[Norm]

It's really not that interesting Norm...

Oh, any opportunity to call you a plum has a degree of interest, Mr Mac.

 

[MacB]

Oh, any opportunity to call you a plum has a degree of interest, Mr Mac.

duly noted and, for a change, I'm unable to argue

 

[youngoldbloke]

In my youth we used clips with straps AND shoeplates - only this offered the kind of pedaling efficiency and security that you get with SPD/SL or Look style pedals and cleats. It was definitely more difficult to get your foot out than with today's cleats, having to reach down to flick the quick release on the straps. Clipless works for me. Especially when 'honking', can't see how you could keep your feet on the pedals otherwise.

 

[Hacienda71]

I prefer being attached because as mentioned by others slipping of the pedals isn't fun. I have cut my shins more than once slipping off flats in the past. The added efficiency derived from clipless is not huge though. I suppose it is like a lot of cycling kit, I don't think more expensive groupsets will make a massive difference to overall speed. They weigh a little less and cost a lot more, but any advantage however small will be grabbed by some in the pursuit of speed. The most important factor is the engine on the bike.

 

[ianrauk]

[QUOTE 1741575, member: 76"]Well, having read the whole thread, and taken on board all the data it seems that most of the clipless riders have toppled over at some point.

Which I think leads to the rather obvious conclusion that it is completely reckless to engage in cycling clipless without a helmet.[/quote]


indeed Maggot. We must all remember, Helmet's saves lives.