Detective/Forensics Question

[DRM]

Weight, and therefore kinetic energy, me old mucker. I knew what the standard NATO grain was, but had to interweb for the 97.

Power is all relative. Most military rifle rounds - specialist stuff like .337 Magnum or 50 cal excepted - are quite weedy compared to many hunting or sporting rifle ammo, so that's usually what people mean when they talk about them not being considered terribly powerful, particularly prior to WWII when hunting rifles were more prevalent.

So when someone says such and such rifle round isn't considered very powerful, it's still likely to go right through you and anything you're stood in front off, penetrate single layer brick walls half a mile away, etc. You need to get into the realms of short rifle rounds, subsonic pistol ammo, etc, before over penetration ceases to be a concern, and even then its still like being hit by a car.

This is true, when we did shooting in the ATC we were allowed to use the Lee Enfield .22 rifles in the range on site, the .303's were a no no as we were told the rounds would have the ability to go through the targets, the rubber curtain behind them, through the wall and straight through the houses behind the range, iirc correctly they had a range of around a mile, these were WW1 era weapons, all stamped WD 1917, or 1918, we also used to do rifle drill on the square outside the hall in full public view of the street, I bet that's not allowed now!

 

[winjim]

Many thanks for the suggestions and information. Publishing isn't really on the cards; it's a method to survive the terminal boredom and excessive human interaction of working on the till for a couple of hours a day.

The story is set in December 1937, so the methods and weapons available will reflect this. There are two guns involved in the story, the Gewehr 98, with a cartridge (at least unless I find a more specialised German sniper rifle from this period) and the Japanese made Type 97 sniper rifle. The G88 used a 7.92×57mm cartridge and the Type 97 took a 6.5×50mm cartridge. Both of these are distinct from the .303/7.7mm cartridge used by the British Army at the time.

In the story the Type 97 is used to assassinate a policeman; the sniper hits on the second attempt, and the bullet that missed passes through the truck bulkhead to be found later in a damaged state when a colleague searches the truck. In a second assassination attempt on this colleague the sniper misses and hits a pile of grain sacks, allowing the shell to be retrieved in better condition. As the intended target of the assassination is a policeman he'll automatically want to identify the bullet, and those differences are fairly easy to recognise using a caliper tool.

The Gewehr 98 is fired by a German sniper, as covering fire. It is deliberately aimed at a wall next to the assassin, in order to hinder or prevent later identification of the bullet. As the sniper is firing over a distance of about 50m and the effective range of the rifle is about a kilometre, I expect the bullet will hit the wall with sufficient force to crush it. As it's a pretty mucky dockside it would be hard to find the remains in the general clutter.

This is the guy who made the Saving Private Ryan video I mentioned. Might have some useful information.


View: https://youtu.be/nbandIJmtI0?si=xuNOoXjHyCNye0Hx



View: https://youtu.be/LvoeQvHbCyc?si=yXrNojlOUskUcmde

 

[MichaelW2]

You can generally tell the calibre of a round from the retrieved bullet in good condition but depending on what they hit, they may deform, strip the copper jacket and squish the lead core.
To match 2 bullets of the same calibre to the same rifle you need to look at the rifling marks etched in the copper jacket by the lands and grooves of the barrel.
In the movie Shooter, an already fired bullet in good condition is fired through a second rifle, but covered in paper, to leave no trace...apparently.
Matching the empty cases to a specific firearm is done using scratch marks from the extractor claw and impression of the firing pin.
Forensic examination of bullets was thing in 1930s but the expertise was not universal. FBI was the leading agency.
The best advice to your " friend" is to use a very common calibre and bullet type, a firearm with no previous history, and an angle grinder.

 

[steveindenmark]

With certain firearms you can also fire different calibres from the same gun.

 

[Drago]

With certain firearms you can also fire different calibres from the same gun.

You can, and even different shells. Certain NATO standards can be fired from guns chambered for Winchester, but not the other way round.

And some rounds are deliberately resigned that way, so a pistol chambered for special or magnum might be able to take a regular round, but a special or magnum round wond physically fit on a pistol chambered for a regular round. I would guess it's a safety thing, you don't want firearms taking high pressure ammonit wasn't designed for.

 

[classic33]

This is taking Cluedo to another level though.
And he's building a half decent alibi.

 

[Yellow Fang]

This is true, when we did shooting in the ATC we were allowed to use the Lee Enfield .22 rifles in the range on site, the .303's were a no no as we were told the rounds would have the ability to go through the targets, the rubber curtain behind them, through the wall and straight through the houses behind the range, iirc correctly they had a range of around a mile, these were WW1 era weapons, all stamped WD 1917, or 1918, we also used to do rifle drill on the square outside the hall in full public view of the street, I bet that's not allowed now!

I was in the ATC. I did not like the Lee Enfield .303. It hurt my shoulder.

 

[Illaveago]

@Andy in Germany you need to watch CSI Las Vegas or New York
According to Gil Grissom, the answer to your questions is Yes and Yes.
I have also read many crime novels

I was just wondering if when reading a CSI book do the pages turn dark when the CSI peeps return to their office ?

 

[Andy in Germany]

all very accurate and cool, but ... the average crime story reader (me lol) wants more suspense related to human interaction and friction

Fair comment, and I'm working on that bit at the moment (At least, when not dealing with customers) What you're seeing here is more the scaffolding holding up the story, and I don't want to mess that up. My concern is that if the main character is motivated to find a perpetrator and the crucial evidence is technically impossible, then the whole story is a bit pointless.

I'm actually finding that I occasionally get quite immersed in the story and it takes half a second to refocus on reality sometimes when I'm writing and a customer turns up.

 

[Andy in Germany]

This is the guy who made the Saving Private Ryan video I mentioned. Might have some useful information.


View: https://youtu.be/nbandIJmtI0?si=xuNOoXjHyCNye0Hx



View: https://youtu.be/LvoeQvHbCyc?si=yXrNojlOUskUcmde

Very useful, many thanks.

 

[Andy in Germany]

Reading through the responses it seems that both scenarios are quite plausible, although the G98 bullet will probably knock a hole through the warehouse wall, rather than hitting it and falling on the ground; this is handy as it would certainly make the assassin leave the scene with some alacrity, and almost certainly render the bullet impossible to find or identify with any accuracy.

The main character would not have access to a forensics laboratory, he'll have to be content measuring the two bullets he found to establish they are the same diameter; hence the need to make sure that would be feasible.

All the talk of the Lee Enfield makes me wonder if it would be more realistic to use a British rifle, as the assassin is British and in British territory it would make sense.

On the other hand, using a non-standard weapon would hide the fact they are connected to the British establishment, who themselves would make sure the rifle was brought discretely into the country.

I'll have to work on it next time I'm on the till.

 

[Yellow Fang]

Or use a revolver, so there’s nothing ejected after the shot that you’d need to recover. DAMHIK

Less likely to jam too (so I read).

 

[Yellow Fang]

@Andy in Germany, all very accurate and cool, but ... the average crime story reader (me lol) wants more suspense related to human interaction and friction
If you want to keep it old school, try the style of Ellery Queen, I used to love those stories as a teen.
I think you can read them for free, the copyright must be expired by now.

Speak for yourself. I like it when the sniper has to regulate his breathing, account for gravity and wind, and if it's a really long shot, the Coriolis Effect. Not like the amateurs in Andy's book by the sound of it.

 

[MichaelW2]

Reading through the responses it seems that both scenarios are quite plausible, although the G98 bullet will probably knock a hole through the warehouse wall, rather than hitting it and falling on the ground; this is handy as it would certainly make the assassin leave the scene with some alacrity, and almost certainly render the bullet impossible to find or identify with any accuracy.

The main character would not have access to a forensics laboratory, he'll have to be content measuring the two bullets he found to establish they are the same diameter; hence the need to make sure that would be feasible.

All the talk of the Lee Enfield makes me wonder if it would be more realistic to use a British rifle, as the assassin is British and in British territory it would make sense.

On the other hand, using a non-standard weapon would hide the fact they are connected to the British establishment, who themselves would make sure the rifle was brought discretely into the country.

I'll have to work on it next time I'm on the till.

Lee Enfields are common in former colonies as issue or mil surplus . German style Mauser actions were very popular with hunters in 1930s and most commercial rifles were of this type.
The sniper in Geoffrey Household's "Rogue Male" used a "Bond Street" African hunting rifle probably Mauser action set in a fancy stock in the calibre chosen by customer .

 

[presta]

the Royal Armouries

..is well worth a visit if you're in the Leeds area, there's enough to keep you amused all day. You'll see where Fred Dibnah got his idea: burning pit props were used in tunnels under the walls of castles for siege breaking.

I saw this non-explosive shell that had been recovered after practice firing and returned as an exhibit.

A neighbour who was in the army during the war had a home-made punner he'd made from an old 18 pounder artillery shell. Damned effective it was, too.

Ooh. He's a smarty pants isn't he ? Wow.

If you want to see how easy it is to forge fingerprints, and defeat laptop fingerprint readers, Google Bruce Schneier.

Weight, and therefore kinetic energy, me old mucker. I knew what the standard NATO grain was, but had to interweb for the 97.

Power is all relative. Most military rifle rounds - specialist stuff like .337 Magnum or 50 cal excepted - are quite weedy compared to many hunting or sporting rifle ammo, so that's usually what people mean when they talk about them not being considered terribly powerful, particularly prior to WWII when hunting rifles were more prevalent.

The kinetic energy of Dirty Harry's 44 Magnum is exactly the same as a 72kg cyclist riding at 12mph. (1037J)

the design of the collar doesn't seem uncommon if you go googling

IIRC, the collar of the shell on the neighbour's punner looked as if it was made of lead.

You can, and even different shells. Certain NATO standards can be fired from guns chambered for Winchester, but not the other way round.

And some rounds are deliberately resigned that way, so a pistol chambered for special or magnum might be able to take a regular round, but a special or magnum round wond physically fit on a pistol chambered for a regular round. I would guess it's a safety thing, you don't want firearms taking high pressure ammonit wasn't designed for.

I recall being shown what happens if you put a small bore cartridge in a larger bore shotgun: it drops through the breech, and then jams further down the barrel. Not a pretty sight if you put a correct one in behind, then fire it....

That was when I was in the Scouts, a farmer came along to our camp and did a talk on shotgun safety then let us have a go at clay shooting. Speaking of clay shoots and safety, when I was out walking on a public right of way once I got pelted by a hail of shrapnel from clays above my head, and if they'd just turned 180 degrees there was 2 miles of uninterrupted land behind them.