Detective/Forensics Question

[Andy in Germany]

Bear in mind that 7.62 long is a powerful round. There's a good likelihood it'll,pass though the target, any vehicle and houses behind him, and travel on for a good distance. It'll need to hit something pretty substantial to stop it dead - a solid 2 foot wall would likely do it- in which case the round may well be obliterated beyond usefulness. If it were fired on a downward trajectory it would pass through thentw4get and into the ground, so could be found and dug up (mine detectors?) with a fair chance it won't be mishapen.

The type 97 was not considered to be particularly powerful, and apparently was replaced during WW2 because of this.

In the story the first assassination takes place at longer range so it's plausible that the bullet would be slowed sufficiently by bulkhead and wooden back of the truck to be found in the floor; on the second attempt the target is standing in front of a pile of grain sacks, and would presumably have to dig fairly deeply into said pile. I'm assuming that the first sack without an entry exit hole would contain the bullet.

 

[classic33]

The type 97 was not considered to be particularly powerful, and apparently was replaced during WW2 because of this. In the story the first assassination takes place at longer range so it's plausible that the bullet would be slowed sufficiently by bulkhead and wooden back of the truck to be found in the floor; on the second attempt the target is standing in front of a pile of grain sacks, and would presumably have to dig fairly deeply into said pile. I'm assuming that the first sack without an entry hole would contain the bullet.

First sack without an entry hole would mean the sack before it will contain the fired round.

 

[Drago]

The type 97 was not considered to be particularly powerful, and apparently was replaced during WW2 because of this. In the story the first assassination takes place at longer range so it's plausible that the bullet would be slowed sufficiently by bulkhead and wooden back of the truck to be found in the floor; on the second attempt the target is standing in front of a pile of grain sacks, and would presumably have to dig fairly deeply into said pile. I'm assuming that the first sack without an entry hole would contain the bullet.

Type 97 'ordinary' was 182 grain. That's a fair bit beefier than NATO standard 7.62 long at 155 grain, and I've seen the holes where they've passed through the front wall of a house and out the back.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Type 97 'ordinary' was 182 grain. That's a fair bit beefier than NATO standard 7.62 long at 155 grain, and I've seen the holes where they've passed through the front wall of a house and out the back.

I had to read up on the type 97 but wiki says the rounds were often used with a weaker charge to lessen even further the low noise and negligible muzzle flash.

 

[Bazzer]

I'm working on a story, nothing serious, just to see if I have a stamina and capability to write a long story, and to be honest I'm working on the till at work and it can be pretty boring.

I'm working on a scenario involving a firearm, and one piece of information is two matching bullets, in the sense that it becomes clear the same gun was used to shoot at two different people.

Being European I've never seen, let alone handled a genuine firearm, and I'm not even sure what search terms to use so I've got a few questions.

If you have two bullets from the same gun, can you tell the calibre?

How easy is this if the bullet hits a solid object like a wall at speed?

In response to your second question, I'm not a gun owner, but having watched a number of gun channels, I would suggest there are a couple of issues to consider.
Firstly, you may be able to get an idea of the calibre of the cartridge from the weight of the retrieved element, i e. the actual bullet. For example a 22lr will be lighter than a 50 cal. So you would need to research the weight of the metal in the bullet, not the cartridge. At a guess, I would think there may be some overlap between different calibres, but bullets like brass solids or FMJs may be easier to identify.
Secondly, if a bullet hits something solid, there may be spalling. This would affect the weight of whatever was retrieved of the bullet and thus may distort what was actually fired.

 

[Andy in Germany]

First sack without an entry hole would mean the sack before it will contain the fired round.

Typo, now fixed, thanks.

 

[classic33]

Typo, now fixed, thanks.

You can't do that!!

 

[Andy in Germany]

You can't do that!!

I did leave the mistake, to be fair.

 

[Andy in Germany]

Type 97 'ordinary' was 182 grain. That's a fair bit beefier than NATO standard 7.62 long at 155 grain, and I've seen the holes where they've passed through the front wall of a house and out the back.

Out of interest, where did you see it? And what is a "grain"? Is that volume or weight?

 

[Andy in Germany]

I had to read up on the type 97 but wiki says the rounds were often used with a weaker charge to lessen even further the low noise and negligible muzzle flash.

It never occurred to me that would be an option, but it makes sense.

 

[Drago]

Out of interest, where did you see it? And what is a "grain"? Is that volume or weight?

Weight, and therefore kinetic energy, me old mucker. I knew what the standard NATO grain was, but had to interweb for the 97.

Power is all relative. Most military rifle rounds - specialist stuff like .337 Magnum or 50 cal excepted - are quite weedy compared to many hunting or sporting rifle ammo, so that's usually what people mean when they talk about them not being considered terribly powerful, particularly prior to WWII when hunting rifles were more prevalent.

So when someone says such and such rifle round isn't considered very powerful, it's still likely to go right through you and anything you're stood in front off, penetrate single layer brick walls half a mile away, etc. You need to get into the realms of short rifle rounds, subsonic pistol ammo, etc, before over penetration ceases to be a concern, and even then its still like being hit by a car.

 

[classic33]

Weight, and therefore kinetic energy, me old mucker. I knew what the standard NATO grain was, but had to interweb for the 97.

Power is all relative. Most military rifle rounds - specialist stuff like .337 Magnum or 50 cal excepted - are quite weedy compared to many hunting or sporting rifle ammo, so that's usually what people mean when they talk about them not being considered terribly powerful, particularly prior to WWII when hunting rifles were more prevalent.

So when someone says such and such rifle round isn't considered very powerful, it's still likely to go right through you and anything you're stood in front off, penetrate single layer brick walls half a mile away, etc. You need to get into the realms of short rifle rounds, subsonic pistol ammo, etc, before over penetration ceases to be a concern, and even then its still like being hit by a car.

Or three foot below the surface of the water in the swimming pool.

 

[lazybloke]

NoShouldn't that be running the length of the shell?
A round that has a collar on it would be wobbling as it traveled down the barrel, damaging the barrel in the long run. And carrying that wobble once clear of the barrel, leading to accuracy issues.

Pass, i'm a civvy, as was the tour guide.
Although... the spin imparted by the rifling is all about improving stability in flight, and the design of the collar doesn't seem uncommon if you go googling

 

[Pat "5mph"]

The story is set in December 1937, so the methods and weapons available will reflect this. There are two guns involved in the story, the Gewehr 98, with a cartridge (at least unless I find a more specialised German sniper rifle from this period) and the Japanese made Type 97 sniper rifle. The G88 used a 7.92×57mm cartridge and the Type 97 took a 6.5×50mm cartridge. Both of these are distinct from the .303/7.7mm cartridge used by the British Army at the time.

The Gewehr 98 is fired by a German sniper, as covering fire. It is deliberately aimed at a wall next to the assassin, in order to hinder or prevent later identification of the bullet. As the sniper is firing over a distance of about 50m and the effective range of the rifle is about a kilometre, I expect the bullet will hit the wall with sufficient force to crush it. As it's a pretty mucky dockside it would be hard to find the remains in the general clutter.

@Andy in Germany, all very accurate and cool, but ... the average crime story reader (me lol) wants more suspense related to human interaction and friction
If you want to keep it old school, try the style of Ellery Queen, I used to love those stories as a teen.
I think you can read them for free, the copyright must be expired by now.

 

[classic33]

@Andy in Germany, all very accurate and cool, but ... the average crime story reader (me lol) wants more suspense related to human interaction and friction
If you want to keep it old school, try the style of Ellery Queen, I used to love those stories as a teen.
I think you can read them for free, the copyright must be expired by now.

One of the writers has only been dead since 1982, so should still be in copyright.

I'd say he's not wanting to be shot down over small details got wrong.