Coronavirus outbreak

[Joey Shabadoo]

On that exact topic I think face coverings, masks and respirators are becoming less common in shops and outside.

Aye, I noticed that today. In Lidl there was no attempt to control the numbers going in and I was the only one wearing a mask inside. In Waitrose two weeks ago (?), the staff had masks and the clear visors, today none of the staff wore anything. There was only one other customer (that I saw) wearing a mask.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

Aye, I noticed that today. In Lidl there was no attempt to control the numbers going in and I was the only one wearing a mask inside. In Waitrose two weeks ago (?), the staff had masks and the clear visors, today none of the staff wore anything. There was only one other customer (that I saw) wearing a mask.

Mask wearing is also becoming less common here and is now almost invisible amongst staff.

 

[mjr]

It won't.

You are suggesting that every person that the "person with terrorist links" has passed that has the app, is now on a watch list. Everyone at the airport, on the train, who was in the cafe or the newsagent, or that the person walked past on the street is now on the watch list. The security services will have to do some recruiting to cope with the volumes involved. Even if the data were analysed and your relatives phone came up as being in proximity and the security services decided that was interesting enough to look at, unless that person is a "wrong-un" they will quickly exclude that data.

Secondly the app is using Bluetooth. Almost all mobiles are Class 2 which means Bluetooth has a range of about 10m and range tends to be impaired by things like walls.

Your naive faith in the correct behaviour of the security services is cute. Have you or a close relative ever been watch-listed by them? They really don't need much reason and being on the list doesn't mean they actually watch you 24x7. It just means they can and are set up to do so, including all the permissions to snoop.

Also, apparently sleeping in close proximity is a bit different to walking past them...

 

[tom73]

If the newspapers report that 50 hospitals have told them that they have PPE supply problems, that sounds a dreadful number and major issue.

What it actually means is that 96% of hospitals* do not have PPE supply problems

*1257 NHS hospitals in the UK, not counting the Nightingales or the Private hospitals currently used by the NHS.

Or put it another way that's 50 hospitals in which staff are being asked to work even though they maybe endangering they're life in the process. Or that's 50 hospitals in which HCP's may have to make a choice of do I save a life or let them die so I can save mine.
The difficulty is you can't be sure which one you end up in.
If only the 190 to date health and social care workers who have sadly died had worked in the 96%.

 

[All uphill]

Your naive faith in the correct behaviour of the security services is cute. Have you or a close relative ever been watch-listed by them? They really don't need much reason and being on the list doesn't mean they actually watch you 24x7. It just means they can and are set up to do so, including all the permissions to snoop.

Also, apparently sleeping in close proximity is a bit different to walking past them...

And the whole point of these apps is that a lot of tracking can be done without the need for a human input.

What I have described as one out of a thousand possible scenarios could be completely automated and with no way to know why your travel documents have been refused.

 

[tom73]

@PK99 a bit of a follow up for you.
The RCN today has published a few stats. over 70% of calls to it's helpline are about lack of PPE, or inadequate standard, or fitting of PPE.
Since it published guidelines a few weeks ago it's had 101 calls from nurses who after trying all other options. Have considered refusing to treat patients. Some may think well i'd report them get them stuck off. Well the NMC is backing the right for a Nurse not to treat someone if they don't have PPE. Just think about that a statutory body who's main job is to protect the public is so concerned over lack of PPE that it will allow a HCP. To refuse to treat someone if they don't have the correct PPE.

Even the BMA has just reported 85% of GPs and 38% of hospital doctors have been forced to source their own PPE for themselves or their department to use. 30% said they wouldn’t bother to speak up as they didn’t think anything would be done about it.
one in four doctors either failed or have not been fit tested for an FFP3 mask at all.

So some body along the line is not telling the truth and we still have a big problem that need's fixing.

 

[kingrollo]

I don't get the big deal about us not being able to make a fair comparison with Italy and other countries. Sure you add a few on Italy's total and maybe take a few off the UK - then whoop , whoop, - were only the second worst country in Europe.

Which ever way you cut the stats - the UK is going to be there or there about when it comes to most deaths.

 

[kingrollo]

@PK99 a bit of a follow up for you.
The RCN today has published a few stats. over 70% of calls to it's helpline are about lack of PPE, or inadequate standard, or fitting of PPE.
Since it published guidelines a few weeks ago it's had 101 calls from nurses who after trying all other options. Have considered refusing to treat patients. Some may think well i'd report them get them stuck off. Well the NMC is backing the right for a Nurse not to treat someone if they don't have PPE. Just think about that a statutory body who's main job is to protect the public is so concerned over lack of PPE that it will allow a HCP. To refuse to treat someone if they don't have the correct PPE.

Even the BMA has just reported 85% of GPs and 38% of hospital doctors have been forced to source their own PPE for themselves or their department to use. 30% said they wouldn’t bother to speak up as they didn’t think anything would be done about it.
one in four doctors either failed or have not been fit tested for an FFP3 mask at all.

So some body along the line is not telling the truth and we still have a big problem that need's fixing.

Yeaaaah but I got mate at de ospital u sez there got shitloadz !!!

 

[kingrollo]

Or put it another way that's 50 hospitals in which staff are being asked to work even though they maybe endangering they're life in the process. Or that's 50 hospitals in which HCP's may have to make a choice of do I save a life or let them die so I can save mine.
The difficulty is you can't be sure which one you end up in.
If only the 190 to date health and social care workers who have sadly died had worked in the 96%.

I don't get it are people suggesting that 50 hospitals reporting a lack of PPE isn't that bad ? ... unbelievable...

 

[Slick]

I'll not go into the extremely concerning issues over privacy, and how the really rather invasive data that this app will collect will be stored permanently, and for purposes that we're not being told about.

There is another very important issue here: the app won't work. There is a good deal of data indicating that as much as half those infected never develop symptoms - but can still be infectious. This app depends on self reporting - all these people will be missed. Furthermore, most of those infected will have a mild illness, so mild that they don't realise that they've caught CV19. These infectious people will also be missed. Indeed, evidence from China, California and Germany is indicating that 90% of cases are missed by the health authorities. This app will miss almost all CV19 cases. This is worse than useless, because this will instill a false sense of security. People will think that they're safe, because this app is telling that when in fact it's missing most infected people.

An app is no substitute for contact tracing, testing and quarantine for those who are infected. Yet that's exactly what this is being touted as! A contact tracing app of this nature would be of considerable use - if it were backed up by rigorous testing of those who exhibit symptoms, and then rigorous testing of those who've been in close contact (to pick up and quarantine the presymptomatic and asymptomatic cases). But even that does not replace the sheer hard work of conventional contact tracing, only helps it. Unfortunately, we're not doing that. We don't have the testing infrastructure. We don't have the contact tracing infrastructure. We're depending on this app (and on those who're alerted to do the right thing). That will fail, simply because it will inevitably miss most cases.

For me, that's the only issue. If it won't work it's obviously pointless and the only reason I've read so far to not bother downloading it.

I'm still willing to see the test results and hear what the government and NHS has to say about it when it becomes available to all before really deciding what I will do about it.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

To tell you the truth, I'm bleedin' fed up with all the talk of masks and PPE in this household. It's been enough to make me want to take a polyamorous lover or develop a mathematical model

mathematical models have good figures. Maybe have a polyamorous relationship with a mathematical model?

 

[Tanis8472]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...s-meets-his-match-in-forensic-starmer-at-pmqs

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...s-meets-his-match-in-forensic-starmer-at-pmqs

Of course, a larger share of the printed press won't see it like that. But even the BBC noted that Johnson had repeatedly looked round for rabble rousing support from his own benches only to find that there weren't enough of them there. Those that were there, seemed to be taking things somewhat more seriously, to my eye.

 

[kingrollo]

For me, that's the only issue. If it won't work it's obviously pointless and the only reason I've read so far to not bother downloading it.

I'm still willing to see the test results and hear what the government and NHS has to say about it when it becomes available to all before really deciding what I will do about it.

It's a bit of a feelgood factor.

If 10 blokes are working on a shop floor - one tests positive - so the 9 other get the self isolate alert and ring the boss "I'm not coming in for the next week " - wonder what the response will be ?

 

[Slick]

It's a bit of a feelgood factor.

If 10 blokes are working on a shop floor - one tests positive - so the 9 other get the self isolate alert and ring the boss "I'm not coming in for the next week " - wonder what the response will be ?

I asked my boss that very question and as it turns out he knows less about the app than I do.