Coronavirus outbreak

[Slick]

We may all wish they had downloaded it and it wont do us any good then either. and we may also wish we hadnt given them reason not to use it.

Why take the risk then with your first point and I've yet to hear a reason why I shouldn't download it in reality.

 

[Inertia]

Why take the risk then with your first point and I've yet to hear a reason why I shouldn't download it in reality.

You have heard reasons but they are not a concern for you, that doesnt mean its not a concern for other people

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

The government’s coronavirus contact tracing app has so far failed the tests needed to be included in the NHS app library, HSJ understands.

The app is being trialed on the Isle of Wight this week, ahead of a national rollout later this month. Senior NHS sources told HSJ it had thus far failed all of the tests required for inclusion in the app library, including cyber security, performance and clinical safety.

There are also concerns at high levels about how users’ privacy will be protected once they log that they have coronavirus symptoms, and become “traceable”, and how this information will be used.

Senior figures told HSJ that it had been hard to assess the app because the government was “going about it in a kind of a hamfisted way. They haven’t got clear versions, so it’s been impossible to get fixed code base from them for NHS Digital to test. They keep changing it all over the place”.

HSJ’s source described the app as “a bit wobbly”, but added that it was not a “big disaster” the app will not be included in the official NHS store at this stage, because it is at an early development stage. However, they also expressed concern about whether it will be able to pass in the near future.

The NHS Apps Library showcases dozens of approved apps which are assessed against a range of NHS standards. Products are assessed against national standards, regulation and industry best practice before they are approved for the library. Developers are asked questions on areas such as clinical safety, data protection and security, depending on the complexity of the technology.

Once the Isle of Wight trial is complete, the app will be referred back to NHS Digital, which runs the app store, for further assessment. During the government’s daily covid-19 briefing yesterday, Cabinet minister Michael Gove said it was hoped that more than half of the 80,000 households on the Isle of Wight would download the app.

The app will use Bluetooth technology to register a “contact” when people come within 6ft of each other for at least 15 minutes. If someone develops symptoms of coronavirus they inform the app and an alert will be sent to other people they have been in close contact with.

Concerns regarding the app’s privacy and information governance have been discussed nationally. Senior NHS sources have raised concerns that the app could risk public trust if privacy protection is overlooked, particularly when people using the app log themselves as having symptoms and therefore become traceable.

A senior NHS national source told HSJ: “The real problem is the government initially started saying it was a ‘privacy-preserving highly anonymous app’, but it quite clearly isn’t going to be… When you use the app and you’re not [covid-19] positive in the early stages, you’re just exchanging signals between two machines… But the second you say, ‘actually I’m positive’, that has to go back up to the government server, where it starts to track you versus other people.”

A spokesman for NHSX said the National Data Guardian’s panel had been consulted on the plans and the data collected by the app would only be used for NHS care, evaluation and research. An independent assurance board involving experts in mobile apps, data governance and clinical safety has also been set up to monitor the production of the app.

An NHS Digital spokesman said apps were not normally assessed for the app store during the earlier stages of testing and, although it has been asked to carry out early assessments already, that further reviews would take place after the piloting.

"The highest level of privacy is built in." Says Hancock. Hmm, which to believe, a known liar or the above text? It's a toughie.

 

[Slick]

You have heard reasons but they are not a concern for you, that doesnt mean its not a concern for other people

Yeah, that's true. Hopefully when the testing is completed the same will be said for 80% of the population. We will just have to wait and see.

 

[Inertia]

Yeah, that's true. Hopefully when the testing is completed the same will be said for 80% of the population. We will just have to wait and see.

I agree and I hope they will alleviate those concerns. government of any stripes track record on IT doesnt fill me with confidence though

 

[SpokeyDokey]

"The highest level of privacy is built in." Says Hancock. Hmm, which to believe, a known liar or the above text? It's a toughie.

Also of concern is the fact that the HSJ article does not cite any source by name - it simply mention NHS sources, senior figures, senior NHS national sources etc.

At the very senior level intimated by the HSJ journalist I would've though that a name or names could be linked to such a damning article - looks to me like a page filler bashed out in haste tbh.

 

[Buck]

Also of concern is the fact that the HSJ article does not cite any source by name - it simply mention NHS sources, senior figures, senior NHS national sources etc.

At the very senior level intimated by the HSJ journalist I would've though that a name or names could be linked to such a damning article - looks to me like a page filler bashed out in haste tbh.

They tend not to name names in their articles - I guess their information is "unofficial" and could get whoever provided the information into trouble - "protecting their sources". Their track record is generally good in terms of their reports being accurate and not just conjecture.

 

[tom73]

So we now have a government app that from day one never complied with Apple or google joint covid tracing privacy rules.
Is unclear who own it, runs it, and has control of the data.
The governments own information commissioner still has questions over.
No law in place to govern it's use , data ownership , or to prevent none use leading to denial of goods, services and employment.
An NHS app that fails to meet NHS data and clinical standards so can't be included in the NHS own app library.
That's even before you get on to inequalities replying on an app to deal with a public health emergency brings.
What can possibly go wrong?
If you want to use it fine go ahead just don't fall for the line that its the right thing to do.
It's way more complex than that but the government is not keen on talking about that.

 

[mjr]

Yeah, that's true. Hopefully when the testing is completed the same will be said for 80% of the population. We will just have to wait and see.

I am hoping that I don't live in a country where 80% will surrender to central tracking, even under duress! I'm a bit disappointed any reasonable person is hoping for the opposite frankly.

Here's hoping the NHSX app is so buggy that they decide to use one of the better ones instead! It seems the way most likely to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat on this.

 

[Slick]

I am hoping that I don't live in a country where 80% will surrender to central tracking, even under duress! I'm a bit disappointed any reasonable person is hoping for the opposite frankly.

Here's hoping the NHSX app is so buggy that they decide to use one of the better ones instead! It seems the way most likely to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat on this.

Again, we're going round in circles here.

 

[mjr]

Again, we're going round in circles here.

To break us out of the loop, maybe you could explain why you feel centralised tracking and a "Not Invented Here" dimissal of other shared apps are good things?

 

[tom73]

Away from the app smoke screen
what do we keep being told ... PPE is being sent out ..... nothing to see here move along
GP relying on donated PPE as they've not been sent any since march.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-52529200

Also it looks that the guidelines of last resort that become the current guidelines have on the QT had a update.
CRP is now no longer seen as a AGP so level 2 mask is fine.
Both the UK Resuscitation Council , the International Resuscitation Council together with WHO all say it is and full PPE should be used.
PHE say little science to say it is , ok then but we have no science to say it's not.
They now leave it down to employers to decided to provide level 3 protection or not.
Which is fine but that leave's HCP's and care workers in a difficult position preform resus and save a life but that may cost mine or save my life at cost of the patient.

 

[Slick]

To break us out of the loop, maybe you could explain why you feel centralised tracking and a "Not Invented Here" dimissal of other shared apps are good things?

My attitude is maybe because an old school mate lost his life over the weekend so I'm not overly concerned if 007 is going to find out who I play golf with on a Saturday morning.

 

[Handlebar Moustache]

Apologies if this has already been comprehensively talked about but can someone explain why the UK’s covid-19 deaths are set to overtake Italy and become the second-highest in the world? Is it our demographics and are we particularly elderly / vulnerable? Is it all to do with the initial herd immunity response and delayed lockdown? It just seems very strange.

 

[mjr]

My attitude is maybe because an old school mate lost his life over the weekend so I'm not overly concerned if 007 is going to find out who I play golf with on a Saturday morning.

That seems like going around in circles about why you feel it doesn't matter to you, not why you think it's a good thing. Maybe you don't think it's a good thing - we'd go around in circles less if you came out and posted that.

Leaving aside the 007 bogus epithet (That Hancock is not 007, or at least I bloody hope he isn't or we've got big problems), your view about your own use of the app is understandable in a way from where you're starting, but surely you should also be wanting the most palatable useful app so it stands the best possible chance of reaching critical mass and not being a complete waste of its users' time and resources?

I just feel it seems a gross insult to all those who have died and will die needlessly if central tracking of users is put before widespread adoption and public safety.