Coronavirus outbreak

[mjr]

I agree most have. Both the government and the public failed over the attendance at football matches and Cheltenham just before the lockdown.

Most of the public did not go to football matches or Cheltenham, despite the government trying to fire more fodder into the "herd immunity" canons by saying that this was OK and various ministers trying to set an example, including one who did the equivalent of feeding a covid-burger to their unborn child by taking him to things like rugby matches at Twickenham:

 

[PK99]

I was wondering how much the NHS doctors are looking at what we know about the body and how it adapts when it has very low levels of oxygen? A lot could be learnt from high altitude medicine where it’s known people have been exercising perfectly fine above 8400m with blood oxygen sats as low at 54%.

Are you sure about that?

• Climbers and scientists have a special name for the highest part of Everest, or everything above 26,247 feet (8,000 meters): "The Death Zone."
• In the Death Zone, oxygen is so limited that the body's cells start to die. Climbers' judgment becomes impaired, and they can experience heart attacks, strokes, or severe altitude sickness.
• Recently, the queues to reach Everest's summit have been so long that climbers in the Death Zone are dying of exhaustion waiting in line for their turn to climb.

and wiki;
The death zone is the name used by mountain climbers for high altitude where there is not enough available oxygen for humans to breathe. This is usually above 8,000 metres (26,247 feet). Most of the 200+ climbers who have died on Mount Everest have died in the death zone.

 

[tom73]

More "oh look how how good are we" government public health policy maybe coming out way.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...us-health-passports-for-uk-possible-in-months

 

[PK99]

The problem is that this is completely sensationalistic. There are countries across Scandinavia & Europe who haven't implemented anywhere near the same level of lockdown as the Italians, Spaniards or UK and they've had nowhere near the levels of infection. If you look at the statistics clearly the most infections occur (as you'd expect) in those areas where the population density is at its highest, hence why London accounts for the vast majority of cases in the UK.

The reality is that Australia and New Zealand are both completely incomparable to the UK in that both their population and population densities are low.

No UK Government could or would have reacted any differently, and that's the cold harsh truth.

Let them crack on.

New Zealand has a population of 4.8 million and a land area approximately the same as the UK.
UK Population 67 Million

Auckland is the biggest NZ city with a population of 1.4 million at a density of 2,400 per sq km
Greater London has a population of 9 Million and a density of 6000 per sq km

 

[mjr]

Speaking of passports, France has added the UK to the EU countries excluded from 14 days quarantine on entry. They didn't have to do that. https://www.france24.com/en/2020050...are-travellers-from-schengen-area-and-britain

 

[mjr]

More "oh look how how good are we" government public health policy maybe coming out way.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...us-health-passports-for-uk-possible-in-months

"How good are we" at handing over biometrics to a firm specialising in facial recognition and again doing the exact opposite of WHO advice, you mean?

 

[tom73]

I was wondering how much the NHS doctors are looking at what we know about the body and how it adapts when it has very low levels of oxygen? A lot could be learnt from high altitude medicine where it’s known people have been exercising perfectly fine above 8400m with blood oxygen sats as low at 54%.

That's in fit and well people who have trained to deal with low sats. It's of little help when the treating critically ill.
Anyone with sats that low would be in real trouble in day to day life.
Even in a pre hospital care situation sats of less than 95% are classed as needed 100% oxygen.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

No UK Government could or would have reacted any differently, and that's the cold harsh truth

Nonsense.

Every week of delay quadrupled the death toll.

We had a policy of herd immunity, then govt changed their minds even they realised they couldn't survive the death toll.

We failed to prepare because we were focused on the ideological triumph of Brexit rather than the practical reality of COVID.

We could see the example of Italy weeks ahead but lethally delayed lock down because our Prime Minister risibly felt the British love of liberty couldn't stomach it.

Every week of delay quadrupled the death toll.

Our dilettante prime minister spent two weeks away at his country house when critical decisions were needed.

Every week of delay quadrupled the death toll.

If we'd acted sooner, we would not have had PPE shortages, because so many fewer cases would have happened. We would already be easing restrictions, because we would have so many fewer cases.

South Korea, Germany, Norway, Greece, Ireland. All acted sooner. All had better outcomes.

Every week of delay quadrupled the death toll.

That's the harsh reality.

 

[matticus]

Interesting to see how others view our success.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...ere-did-britain-go-wrong-20200428-p54o2d.html

There's an interesting aspect to the hindsight-witch-hunt in there which I hadn't noticed before:

Arrivals at Heathrow Airport were half what they normally were in March but still, 3.1 million landed there over the month. Nearly half a million came from the Asia-Pacific; 875,000 were from the European Union, and 711,000 came from North America.

Home Secretary Priti Patel supported a ban on travellers who had been in hotspots but was slapped down by Downing Street, which cited scientific advice that doing so would have little impact on the spread of the infection. When this spat was under way, Australia's borders had already been closed for a week to all foreign travellers. Australia banned flights from China as early as February 1.

 

[marinyork]

Your view?

I agree most have. Both the government and the public failed over the attendance at football matches and Cheltenham just before the lockdown. There are many examples of breaking the regulations on self-isolation and social-distancing by the public every day, most of which are not highlighted because the police don't get involved.

We don't have mass gatherings and disobedience because that is not the British way, old chap. We prefer to bitch on the internet and letters to newspapers.

As far as I can tell there isn't a psychologist or behavioural scientist or epidemiologist out there criticising the UK public at large. Yes, they may be publishing to the rules or messages, but every one I have seen has said given this is what the rules are x, that the public are following social distancing and shielding more than expected/the models.

We all have daft neighbours, so my next door neighbour has her sister and mother around every couple of days and they are both back at work. They've also had bbqs. A neighbour across the road is constantly visiting mate's houses. Most others reducing their social interactions by the nickyboy scale. It's hard to measure by I'd imagine the vast majority of the population it's down by 75-100%.

 

[marinyork]

More "oh look how how good are we" government public health policy maybe coming out way.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...us-health-passports-for-uk-possible-in-months

That's one half of the back to work policy.

The other half is something along the lines of https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-peoples-health-at-risk-warns-tuc-coronavirus

For example, one section says employers could consider limiting how many people are in a vehicle, without saying how many the government considers would be safe.

 

[tom73]

Oh can't beat nicely joined up thinking what can possibly go wrong
Never mind though at least the government has it all covered by an app.

 

[fossyant]

I was wondering how much the NHS doctors are looking at what we know about the body and how it adapts when it has very low levels of oxygen? A lot could be learnt from high altitude medicine where it’s known people have been exercising perfectly fine above 8400m with blood oxygen sats as low at 54%.

Erm, I'm sure they know. I've personally had stats of just 70% when I broke my back and 4 ribs. I felt fine (I knew it wasn't fine as FIL was dying with stats just below 90%), but that would have been the big doses of morphine talking. Let's say Intensive care was brought to me in the spinal ward. I was OK on oxygen, but as soon as I came of it, 70%.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Erm, I'm sure they know. I've personally had stats of just 70% when I broke my back and 4 ribs. I felt fine (I knew it wasn't fine as FIL was dying with stats just below 90%), but that would have been the big doses of morphine talking. Let's say Intensive care was brought to me in the spinal ward. I was OK on oxygen, but as soon as I came of it, 70%.

You'd be surprised many of them are only used to seeing numbers for sedentary populations and act shocked when they see figures outside the norms they are used to. We are talking people operating at high levels of exertion with only about 6-7% of the air being oxygen. So lungs are drawing in 30% of the oxygen they would at sea level. So imagine your lungs only working at 30% but you can still go about exercising. Maybe some corona infected people who don't get very sick are able to adapt in a similar way high altitude mountaineers do.

 

[Salty seadog]

Yet people are licking the government's boots saying they're heros. They've got blood on their hands. It's not good enough. It's all good and well saying hindsights a wonderful thing blah blah.

Especially as we had several weeks of foresight watching it unfold in other countries.