Coronavirus outbreak

[tom73]

Yes, I don’t usually watch updates, but, saw that one. In my experience (and that of wife and daughter, both nurses), the NHS is incredibly wasteful, so, seemed reasonable request to me.

All public bodies are wasteful
Going though official channels and request providers to keep any waste to minimum is one thing.
But to publicly shift the blame for a shortage to the very staff who need it is quite another.
Infection control training was not great to start with but now it's just got even worse.
Maybe if he lead from the front and mucked in he'd know.
After all the every day life in a Hospital continues so plenty of bed pans still need emptying.

 

[kingrollo]

On the other hand though no news is good news. You would know you have not in all likelihood been near someone long enough to have been infected.

Voluntary use of a tracking app might have to be the compromise between a longer lockdown and restrictions being gradually lifted whilst avoiding the danger of a new wave of infections.

Either that or my phone's broke !!!!!

I must my heart sinks whenever I hear "download our app".....

 

[Edwardoka]

every month of lockdown adds GBP10bn debt, just from furloughing

We come out of this with enormous debt and that will have to be repaid eventually and that will lead to very difficult government spending decisions going forward

Finally, every day of lockdown is another huge amount of debt that we, the public, will have to pay back over the coming years

The fallout on national finances isn't even being discussed here. This is the elephant in the room. We will increase NHS funding (political suicide to do otherwise) and we will have to manage a much higher debt burden. The only way to do this is to tax us more or reduce other public services or both. Government will have to do this because whilst interest rates are at historic lows, if they start to move up over next few years you and I will be repaying this additional debt for ever

While obviously mobilising the economy and taking steps necessary to stop the economy collapsing necessitates an increase in public spending and therefore public debt to keep some vital sectors going, what I don't understand is why we're doing the opposite of means-testing on the furlough money being paid out.

I understand the logic of "people who earn more have higher monthly expenditure" but IMO the correct system is "suspend the expenditure", not "massively subsidise the companies who earn money from monthly expenditure"

I know someone who has been furloughed and is quite well-off, owns three properties (two outright, and receive rent on one) and will receive more in government handouts in a month and a half than someone who is jobless living hand to mouth will in a year.

Someone else I know runs a company and his only option to receive any financial assistance while his business is shut down is to furlough himself.

Further due to the nature of his business all his staff are all self-employed. One of his guys started in May last year and is therefore ineligible for furlough payments because he doesn't have the tax records, whereas if he'd started a couple of months earlier he'd be fine.

How is any of that equitable?

It's almost like it was extremely ill-thought out (spoiler: it was) and/or was designed purposefully to allow vast amounts of public revenue to be siphoned off directly to bankers and corporate executives for decades to come.

All £300,034 974,000 of it.

 

[kingrollo]

All public bodies are wasteful
Going though official channels and request providers to keep any waste to minimum is one thing.
But to publicly shift the blame for a shortage to the very staff who need it is quite another.
Infection control training was not great to start with but now it's just got even worse.
Maybe if he lead from the front and mucked in he'd know.
After all the every day life in a Hospital continues so plenty of bed pans still need emptying.

I work in the NHS - and the biggest waste I ever seen was the re org in 2010 - it cost about £4bn - and most of it either couldn't be done - or had to be undone.

 

[matticus]

Of course, you could be wrong.....

Indeed!

 

[vickster]

Ok - whatever it takes - put it on the basic rate of income tax - I would have thought 3% on the basic rate would raise a good whack.
My general point - I don't mind paying and I am not a big earner.
IMO we need to move away from the idea that paying tax is a bad thing. IMO it isn't.

3% on 20p is less than a penny. Yes it would raise a bit but not as much as 2-3p 👍

 

[tom73]

Either that or my phone's broke !!!!!

I must my heart sinks whenever I hear "download our app".....

Or turn of location settings

 

[kingrollo]

While obviously mobilising the economy and taking steps necessary to stop the economy collapsing necessitates an increase in public spending and therefore public debt to keep some vital sectors going, what I don't understand is why we're doing the opposite of means-testing on the furlough money being paid out.

I understand the logic of "people who earn more have higher monthly expenditure" but IMO the correct system is "suspend the expenditure", not "massively subsidise the companies who earn money from monthly expenditure"

I know someone who has been furloughed and is quite well-off, owns three properties (two outright, and receive rent on one) and will receive more in government handouts in a month and a half than someone who is jobless living hand to mouth will in a year.

Someone else I know runs a company and his only option to receive any financial assistance while his business is shut down is to furlough himself.

Further due to the nature of his business all his staff are all self-employed. One of his guys started in May last year and is therefore ineligible for furlough payments because he doesn't have the tax records, whereas if he'd started a couple of months earlier he'd be fine.

How is any of that equitable?

It's almost like it was extremely ill-thought out (spoiler: it was) and/or was designed purposefully to allow vast amounts of public revenue to be siphoned off directly to bankers and corporate executives for decades to come.

All £300,034 974,000 of it.

To be fair I think they needed it up and running quickly.
I can work from WFH - so it doesn't affect me - but I think the financial package is one of the few things the govt has come close to getting right.
But I am viewing from afar.

 

[Unkraut]

Hot off the press this morning, the firm CurVac located in Tübingen (the one Trump wanted to pinch for America) is planning to test a vaccine in early summer - June or at the latest July. I don't think this necessarily means they definitely have a vaccine yet (beware of press headlines!) but it must mean one is in the offing. If first clinical study tests with a hundred volunteers are successful then a major test with several thousand could begin. This gives hope of a vaccine being available before next winter with the possibility of a new wave of infections feared by some.

The company has already developed a vaccine against rabies, so they already have successful experience in this field.

The EU is supporting the costs of the research to the tune of €80 million.

 

[kingrollo]

Hot off the press this morning, the firm CurVac located in Tübingen (the one Trump wanted to pinch for America) is planning to test a vaccine in early summer - June or at the latest July. I don't think this necessarily means they definitely have a vaccine yet (beware of press headlines!) but it must mean one is in the offing. If first clinical study tests with a hundred volunteers are successful then a major test with several thousand could begin. This gives hope of a vaccine being available before next winter with the possibility of a new wave of infections feared by some.

The company has already developed a vaccine against rabies, so they already have successful experience in this field.

The EU is supporting the costs of the research to the tune of €80 million.

Will the UK be first in the Q ? - or more precisely the west Midlands !

 

[Edwardoka]

To be fair I think they needed it up and running quickly.
I can work from WFH - so it doesn't affect me - but I think the financial package is one of the few things the govt has come close to getting right.
But I am viewing from afar.

Naw, it's a disgrace. They literally didn't care that many people are falling through the gaps, because they were afraid of it being used for fraud or people getting a penny more than they would otherwise. Sunak said as much during the presser where the scheme for self-employed people was announced.

In addition to the edge cases I outlined above, if you started your current job after February 28th you're screwed because you're not on payroll, the only option is to ask your previous employer to put you back on payroll or to join the queue for UC, a malign system designed to make people give up in despair.

As it stands the furloughing is simply giving public money hand-over-fist to rent-seekers, and we're expected to pick up the tab for decades to come.
Honestly, if this were France there'd be serious rumblings of revolution.

 

[nickyboy]

It's only in recent years we cleared the debt from WW2
If they stick 2-3 % on the basic rate of tax to pay for it -and fund the NHS that's fine by me.

I've got a feeling that's not how this is going to play out

In very much oversimplistic terms the people who are getting the financial support introduced during the pandemic are labour voters; lower income, gig economy, can't work from home etc etc

The people who would pay for it with higher taxes will be conservative voters: higher earners, comfortable retired. Again a gross oversimplification but on average, this is what will happen

Would you expect a conservative government to increase the tax burden on its core support to pay for the financial support those gig economy workers are receiving? Unfortunately in the realpolitik world, the answer is no

So I'm expecting some more austere years, NHS excepted

 

[Archie_tect]

Indeed, but you said 2-3% which is diddly squat on 20p, 40p or 50p

2-3% additional tax added to 20%, ie. 22-23% would be a decent starting point providing they scrap Trident... ie it'll never happen.

I work in the NHS - and the biggest waste I ever seen was the re org in 2010 - it cost about £4bn - and most of it either couldn't be done - or had to be undone.

If you really want to get riled about waste... North Staffs Health was given to Virgin Health... and all the staff transferred. Virgin Health couldn't make enough profit so cut the staff pay grades down by at least one in most cases and made some of the more senior staff redundant [early retirement options]. Now, in the middle of the coronavirus crisis they have taken their bat home and stopped operating Nortn Staff Health... BUT they insisted that the laptops that the staff used for community district work were returned to them leaving the, now NHS, without any IT support. How cynical and devious and utterly mind-glowingly crass is that? Richard Branson either knows all this is happening and authorised it, or doesn't and isn't capable of provid public services [I hate the insidious asset-stripping of the UK's public services]. Either way he deserves to be shown up for what he is.

 

[vickster]

2-3% additional tax added to 20%, ie. 22-23% would be a decent starting point providing they scrap Trident... ie it'll never happen.

I read it as adding 2-3% not 2-3p. I consider tax rates a pennies in the pound not a %. Guess it’s the same thing.
Although 3p on 20p rate is a 15% rise?

 

[mjr]

Hot off the press this morning, the firm CurVac located in Tübingen (the one Trump wanted to pinch for America) is planning to test a vaccine in early summer - June or at the latest July. I don't think this necessarily means they definitely have a vaccine yet (beware of press headlines!) but it must mean one is in the offing. If first clinical study tests with a hundred volunteers are successful then a major test with several thousand could begin. This gives hope of a vaccine being available before next winter with the possibility of a new wave of infections feared by some.

The company has already developed a vaccine against rabies, so they already have successful experience in this field.

The EU is supporting the costs of the research to the tune of €80 million.

What's your source? It has more detail than this:

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/CureVacAG/status/1247447031360167938