Coronavirus outbreak

[matticus]

You should be counsellor to the bereaved

Do you not have one once empathy for the bereaved - rather than trying to put a slant on making Boris look good ?

Has it never occurred to you people tonight have lost father's, sons, brother, sisters ..

It beggars belief it seriously does.

He's reporting the facts. You're making an unjustified personal slur.
Is attacking Ajax helping the bereaved?
We're all still alive, and most of us have lost loved ones at some point; why do you think you've got a monopoly on sympathy?

Stupid stupid post

 

[PK99]

Maybe we can start to open schools if the government would as with much of this mess. Look at his other parts of the world have managed it. Without the plucking the next magic solution. Smaller bubbles , take over empty wide open spacers not able to open you don’t need a school for learning, more breaks outdoors and often , ventilate the place, mask up at all times. Set days in and set out of school for given year groups. Forget targets and just let kids learn what they can when they can. It’s mental well-being that matters right now and the welfare and safety of the ones at the bottom. Not learning a joyless curriculum all to pass a test. As with all things right now you can’t expect and believe once you open again it all normal.

I've just attended a Burn's Supper - on line Via Zoom.

One of the guys had spent the day invigilating online exams which will form part of the Teacher Assessment or whatever it is called this year.

Some schools are taking control for themselves and delivering as close to normal as they possibly can, without whinging.

 

[Johnno260]

This total fixation on giving dates for things has been part of the problem as if covid has a diary and you can set up an appointment.
It's not helpful and they have a habit of becoming set on then no matter how many warning they get saying don't do it.
The rules are not the problem , the lockdowns are not the problem. Covid is the problem focus on that and you don't need the rest.
it's looking more likely that even now the penny has dropped.

I agree as when the date for said thing comes and passes then people go utterly nuts, it’s a fluid situation and nothing can be taken for granted.

Also people getting restless and jumping onto conspiracy theories isn’t helping as more people seem to be listening to those.

I torn a relative a new one as they linked a thread on how to get off Covid fines, I said that’s totally irresponsible and undermines efforts I said it’s no different to these lawyers who get people off bannable driving offences by exploiting loopholes, the person did the crime having a letter dispatched a day late doesn’t mean they are innocent.

He then went on about phoney death numbers, and give him a valid source not from BBC, Sky, Wiki etc so I linked him to the NHS website and he then splits hairs saying they died while having a positive test, I said see valid source and you still split hairs on wording, people don’t die of old age it’s cardiac arrest but it’s the same thing, or another age related thing.

He then links a site that Covid isn’t a HCID now and then compares it to Ebola, I said not many things are in the same league as Ebola thankfully, and while that website does say it’s not classed as HCID it doesn’t then say what it has been classified as.

I also said I know NHS workers one doctor I have known since pre school and another since 2nd school and my wife’s a nurse I have seen the impact on people and trust what they say, I then get my mate in the pub who went to uni and wears a suit believes in flat earth does that make him right? I said my wife is hardly some person at a pub and a life long friend isn’t either.

The point I’m making is many people don’t want to listen, and I’m tired of all this BS, people are trying to do their best and people just see conspiracy, and nonsense in so many things, it’s like being asked to wear a mask is painful, and if that’s how low we have sunk as a society that people are oppressed for being asked to wear a mask, then that’s beyond tragic.

 

[mjr]

Also people getting restless and jumping onto conspiracy theories isn’t helping as more people seem to be listening to those.

Some ideas on how to combat this:

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/TimHarford/status/1352675619813863427

 

[Ajax Bay]

"Pleased to see the UK-wide restrictions are making a difference at last after the cases peaked at Epiphany +1."

I can't understand anyone being pleased about these restrictions, made necessary by that series of Christmas fark ups. A lot of people have died this month because of it.

I was pleased by the beneficial effect of the restrictions. A lot of our "fathers, sons, brother, sisters" will NOT die next month because of the Tier 4 and then UK-wide restrictions imposed in late December. Restrictions take time to work. Cases peaked on about 7 Jan and I hope the daily death rate (date of death) will drop from this week onwards. Vaccination of the vulnerable elements of society will mean they are spared hospital from now on. And vaccination of all health (NHS et al) and care workers (in Group 2) will mean that they can cope (without losing people to illness and self-isolation) with the extraordinary demands on the NHS. And hopefully take the time off their work pattern should allow them.

 

[tom73]

I agree as when the date for said thing comes and passes then people go utterly nuts, it’s a fluid situation and nothing can be taken for granted.

Also people getting restless and jumping onto conspiracy theories isn’t helping as more people seem to be listening to those.

I torn a relative a new one as they linked a thread on how to get off Covid fines, I said that’s totally irresponsible and undermines efforts I said it’s no different to these lawyers who get people off bannable driving offences by exploiting loopholes, the person did the crime having a letter dispatched a day late doesn’t mean they are innocent.

He then went on about phoney death numbers, and give him a valid source not from BBC, Sky, Wiki etc so I linked him to the NHS website and he then splits hairs saying they died while having a positive test, I said see valid source and you still split hairs on wording, people don’t die of old age it’s cardiac arrest but it’s the same thing, or another age related thing.

He then links a site that Covid isn’t a HCID now and then compares it to Ebola, I said not many things are in the same league as Ebola thankfully, and while that website does say it’s not classed as HCID it doesn’t then say what it has been classified as.

I also said I know NHS workers one doctor I have known since pre school and another since 2nd school and my wife’s a nurse I have seen the impact on people and trust what they say, I then get my mate in the pub who went to uni and wears a suit believes in flat earth does that make him right? I said my wife is hardly some person at a pub and a life long friend isn’t either.

The point I’m making is many people don’t want to listen, and I’m tired of all this BS, people are trying to do their best and people just see conspiracy, and nonsense in so many things, it’s like being asked to wear a mask is painful, and if that’s how low we have sunk as a society that people are oppressed for being asked to wear a mask, then that’s beyond tragic.

Totally true and is yet still being filled by a massive vacuum of clear, consistent message delivered by someone people trust. What we continue to get is nothing like it. Even when the facts are given by ones who are officially given the job to do it. They are then shot down by the very ones who appointed them. Or ones around them who try to force issues such as fellow MP's (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55839252)

Even main stream media are happy to enforce damaging narratives. On the back of this we have conspiracy theory which is no longer something to laugh at down the pub. But has come of age become well organised and built very skilfully on actual facts which once twisted are then weaved into an even more believable idea. In turn it's become mainstream and even used my ones in power equally they've been happy to promote it. USA is a prime example attacking this by shutting down the source is not the real solution. Knowing why perfically normal pepole turn to believing it all needs to be made clear and understood. Until we tackle this both as in the same way we do with organised crime together with social science. We can't fix this the problem is most of why people turn won't make most of the ones who lord it over us a comfortable read.

As for being sick of this I'm with you and see and live with the effects this is having on others and are totally behind feeling outrage. Lucky we've not had any of the targeted protests aimed at health workers as they go into work. But it's very much here plenty of stuff has been posted around town for all to read. When you don't think it this can't get lower I was shown this which Mrs 73 get via one of her Nursing friends had posted. It's now been picked up by the BBC handing out verbal on the way into work is one thing but confronting professionals and trying to inferrer with and intimidate them doing the job they wish to do. In the work place by trying to forcibly remove a very sick man for hospital with only one out come he'd die. Shows that society has sank to a very dark place.

If anyone watchers it not just watch it listen we need to fight this and face up to the damage the vacuum of trusted and believable politics has left us with. Calling it out and poking fun no longer works change need to happen which is much deeper.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55825480

 

[Ajax Bay]

Had a great local 100km ride yesterday.
@kingrollo - just pasting what is wrote in here so you can READ it.
"I wonder if Wednesdays are always way above the rolling average for deaths (those within 28 days of a COVID-19 test on the day of death) being reported? Were there substantially less yesterday and the day before? Is the 7-day average dropping? Pleased to see the UK-wide restrictions are making a difference at last after the cases peaked at Epiphany +1."
The answers are: 'yes' 'yes' and 'yes' btw, but you know that (and @mjr has helped in his comment).

You should be counsellor to the bereaved.
Do you not have one ounce of empathy for the bereaved - rather than trying to put a slant on making Boris look good?
Has it never occurred to you people tonight have lost father's, sons, brother, sisters ..

I suspect you would be a much better counsellor to the bereaved than me: maybe you are doing this already. If so, many thanks.
I fail to see how you can rationally infer from what I say that I don't have empathy for the bereaved, nor that the loss of additional lives and years of life has not "occurred" to me.
I can't see a "slant" in what I said, nor anything that would "make the PM and our government look good". Please help us here (but not by just making up what you think I might think).
Please try to make useful comments rather than attacking other people (I have counselled you on this a couple of times already). I understand you wind yourself up about this. It is probably not good for you.

 

[Johnno260]

Some ideas on how to combat this:

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/TimHarford/status/1352675619813863427

That was a good article, I tried something similar when I said put aside views on Covid I said the law is the law, and used my speeding example I said regardless if the person got off, they still committed the offence.

He said he saw my point and and would consider what he posts, and this morning all I see if don't wear a mask free yourself and loads of linked posts from Freenation and Qanon, so RiP another relative, I'm hoping Elon starts offering tickets to Mars sooner rather than later.

 

[Johnno260]

Totally true and is yet still being filled by a massive vacuum of clear, consistent message delivered by someone people trust. What we continue to get is nothing like it. Even when the facts are given by ones who are officially given the job to do it. They are then shot down by the very ones who appointed them. Or ones around them who try to force issues such as fellow MP's (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55839252)

Even main stream media are happy to enforce damaging narratives. On the back of this we have conspiracy theory which is no longer something to laugh at down the pub. But has come of age become well organised and built very skilfully on actual facts which once twisted are then weaved into an even more believable idea. In turn it's become mainstream and even used my ones in power equally they've been happy to promote it. USA is a prime example attacking this by shutting down the source is not the real solution. Knowing why perfically normal pepole turn to believing it all needs to be made clear and understood. Until we tackle this both as in the same way we do with organised crime together with social science. We can't fix this the problem is most of why people turn won't make most of the ones who lord it over us a comfortable read.

As for being sick of this I'm with you and see and live with the effects this is having on others and are totally behind feeling outrage. Lucky we've not had any of the targeted protests aimed at health workers as they go into work. But it's very much here plenty of stuff has been posted around town for all to read. When you don't think it this can't get lower I was shown this which Mrs 73 get via one of her Nursing friends had posted. It's now been picked up by the BBC handing out verbal on the way into work is one thing but confronting professionals and trying to inferrer with and intimidate them doing the job they wish to do. In the work place by trying to forcibly remove a very sick man for hospital with only one out come he'd die. Shows that society has sank to a very dark place.

If anyone watchers it not just watch it listen we need to fight this and face up to the damage the vacuum of trusted and believable politics has left us with. Calling it out and poking fun no longer works change need to happen which is much deeper.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55825480

It's sadly true, using flat earth as an example they put together really well packaged material, it's quality big budget videos etc, but the substance is utter nonsense, sadly one I know can't accept that I'm not a NASA sheep as I have a telescope and can view objects that are clearly globes!

The best video I saw was when the purchased a laser gyroscope to prove the earth has no drift (rotation) the thing then displayed the exact and accurate drift, so the live stream ended with them saying the $23k device was obviously faulty! haha

My wife's hospital hasn't seen protests yet, and thankfully they have secured staff parking, but they have had other issues that I can't speak of, and extra security has been put in place.

But attacking the staff that could potentially be caring for you or a relative? that's beyond low, that actually doesn't compute with me at all..

Clear concise instructions needs to be improved, I get that, all we can hope for is they see the risk and combat it with clear and obvious facts, the hardcore will still dispute it, but we can hope it pulls some of the followers around to a more sane and responsible what of thinking.

 

[kingrollo]

Vaccine free for all by me - no letter just turn up if you are over 70....in practice just turn up even if you aren't over 70.

In part this is why the numbers look good - nobody is turned away.

Grab your vaccine while u can !!!

 

[tom73]

Now we've got the other bunch of clowns happy to play the let's discredit the facts.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-...128bba54a69202e80ddfd2&pinned_post_type=share

 

[Ajax Bay]

Yes, I heard the interview with Rayner on her proposal to get all teachers vaccinated. The interviewer did, I'm pleased to say, get the clear message across: the ONS statistics for 2020 show that teachers are no more (or less) at risk than the general working age population (corrected for age).
And when asked who should wait while hundreds of thousands of teachers get the first dose, the Rayner (?Opposition) solution was: let's just ramp up the supply/delivery so we can do the teachers 'as well'.
Nevertheless, if getting children back into school and keeping schools open for the scheduled terms depends on teachers not getting ill and not having to self-isolate, there is a good argument for making teachers (and police officers and bus drivers) Group 10 (mid May?).

 

[mjr]

Yes, I heard the interview with Rayner on her proposal to get all teachers vaccinated. The interviewer did, I'm pleased to say, get the clear message across: the ONS statistics for 2020 show that teachers are no more (or less) at risk than the general working age population (corrected for age). [...]

1. I've not looked at that ONS data yet. Can anyone confirm that they corrected for the different proportion of teachers working from home while schools were closed or operating hybrid/blended models, compared to the proportion of the general working age population working from home?

2. Is it proper that the interviewer put the government message across and was it made clear that it was the government message?

 

[matticus]

( @Ajax Bay : )
Exactly. Teachers are more at risk than average because they will ALL be at work! Compared to the average - say - 55yo who is only at work if absolutely necessary.
If our Gov thinks that education is essential, then protecting teachers should be too.

 

[Ajax Bay]

I looked at the ONS stats a few days ago (see a few pages back -after @Cirrus 's post iirc). AS ONS stats they obviously don't deal with nuances like wfh and the other stuff you mention. The stats offer data on how many teachers died, then as a proportion, and note that that proportion is the same as the general population. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55795608
Several other worker categories suffered much more (the deduction being that they were (and are) more at risk).
This is not the "government message". This is what the ONS stats tell them (and us). Links back to @tom73 's point that this seemed to be a politician trying to diss the facts.
Edit: See this post et seq: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/coronavirus-outbreak.256913/page-1107#post-6287851
@matticus Thank you. They are at no more risk than the rest of the population (the average): well, that's what the stats say (I will go looking (again)) . But it's the effect on 28+ children's education of teachers falling ill or having to self-isolate that I think is a driver behind including teachers in Group 10: not the effect of the illness on the teachers themselves.
ETA: (BBC drawing on ONS data - link in line 3 above):
"Among teachers, there were 18 deaths per 100,000 among men and 10 per 100,000 among women.
"Breaking that down by role, secondary school teachers appear to have a very slightly elevated risk at 39 deaths per 100,000 people in men and 21 per 100,000 in women.
"Per 100,000 men aged 20-64, 31 died in the population as a whole" (and my maths so very roughly, 25 women per 100,000)
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...-19-in-teaching-and-educational-professionals