Christianity ruins a relationship ....Alpha courses?

[Tetedelacourse]

I don't see the advantage, though. If one wants to stop questioning, one could just as easily decide that the Big Bang was the beginning of all things and leave it at that - no need to invent a god.

Not very scientific. Wouldn't you need a reason to stop asking? Or put another way, what would be the rational basis for not looking beyond the Big Bang?

 

[CopperBrompton]

My point is that 'God' is not a meaningful answer to the question. The claim was made that 'God' provides a convenient place at which to cease questioning, and was making the point that it was no more (or less) convenient than the Big Bang.

 

[Tetedelacourse]

My point is that you're reading the answer of "God" in a scientific way, as opposed to a matter of faith. The former sees that answer as not meaningful (agreed), the latter sees it as suffice.

 

[andyoxon]

Well the answer to DD and to the premise that we're only here for a finite amount of time is quite easy; it's God's will! Well, I imagine that's what those who have faith would say.

I enjoy listening to the perspective from those who have a deep faith. I don't have one myself but it interests me to hear how those who do see things and come to terms with things. From this thread, seems it's alll in the interpretation.

For those who deride faith on the basis that there's no evidence, that it's irrational etc, where did it all begin? How did creation happen? Do you think that no belief system is worth holding if it's not supported by fact or facts?

I'm prepared to believe in God as far as it provides an answer of sorts to creation and is a comfort I suppose in thinking of my own mortality, but I don't go in for pretty much anything else, about sin, those who will be saved and those who wont, prayer, worship etc. For me, there are some values, some of which Mr Pig described, which are worth promoting.

So I probably upset both sides to some extent. I can't accept a lot of the archaic preaching in the bible, nor the way it treats the theory of evolution, but on the other hand to live your life by a set of beliefs formed purely by scientific fact falls short.

The single most despicable thing about religion from my perspective though is as Fnaar says above; have your own beliefs but allow me the same freedom. Maybe there are those you feel who need to be saved, but don't force your set of beliefs on me. That's I suppose the underlying problem I have with this woman's approach from the OP. An ultimatum based on a set of beliefs she holds.

T, out of interest how do you feel [Christian] beliefs are forced on you? In this country we’re free to go about life, and hold our beliefs (within the law), make our own decisions... Not the same over the globe though, as we may know...for instance if you happened to have, as a Christian in Southern Sudan, been forced into slavery and required to change you name...

Well people have already made good points about this relationship issue as per OP. No one can make someone become a Christian, there are choices involved, and for woman in question having following Christ as a common focus is obviously very important. I suppose in any relationship, there is managing goals and expectations - for a Christian couple, saving sex for marriage may be an important issue.

 

[Chris James]

I do get pretty sick of the God bashing on this forum.

Don't ever log on to UK Climbing forum. They are obsessed with having a go at Christians there.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Cathryn wrote "I do get pretty sick of the God bashing on this forum."

I really wish people wouldn't get so defensive. God, if they existed would not need defended or mind about being 'bashed' - after all they are beyond pettiness, indeed beyond time and space. In addition, oganised religions have utterly dominated our culture (and had both good and bad results) for the best part of 4000 years. Rationalists, atheists and agnostics are going to have to do a lot more than we do to make up for that!

What you are trying to argue though, is that religious belief is special and different from any other ideology. That may work from inside a place of belief, but it doesn't work from outside. From outside, the belief has to be justified the same as any other. I confront the claims of Christians, the same way I confront the claims of Muslims, Communists or Conservatives - with scepticism, caution, examination against what we know of the universe and philsophy. This is particularly true when claims are made about particular ethical positions or indeed actions that are secondary - i.e.: are not necessary within the belief-system but draw on it for legitimacy.

I am happy for people to have a system that gives their life meaning and provides a basis for ethical action - indeed I think it is probably essential. What has to be realised is that this has to be negotiated with others when it comes to living in a plural world. People can't just expect others to behave as they would like them or get annoyed if they are critical.

 

[Tetedelacourse]

T, out of interest how do you feel [Christian] beliefs are forced on you? In this country we’re free to go about life, and hold our beliefs (within the law), make our own decisions... Not the same over the globe though, as we may know...for instance if you happened to have, as a Christian in Southern Sudan, been forced into slavery and required to change you name...

Well people have already made good points about this relationship issue as per OP. No one can make someone become a Christian, there are choices involved, and for woman in question having following Christ as a common focus is obviously very important. I suppose in any relationship, there is managing goals and expectations - for a Christian couple, saving sex for marriage may be an important issue.

I've come across a fair number of those types of Christians Cathryn alluded to in my time - the ones who are almost militant in their views. I haven't come across that on here at all, but my upbringing was loosely church of Scotland protestant, and it was expected (at home to some extent, at school to more,that as a kid, I'd go to church and unquestioningly accept what was being said. I also have a relation down south who is a baptist. I don't like the way he tries to heatedly lead others to the righteous path.

I'm not for a minute saying I've had an upbringing like e.g. the third world! But you'd accept Andy that there are some whose life revolves around faith who try to aggressively recruit others to the church? Another question which links back to the OP.

 

[postman]

Please tell your mate to go on the Alpha course.Then come back and tell us what happened.

 

[andyoxon]

I've come across a fair number of those types of Christians Cathryn alluded to in my time - the ones who are almost militant in their views. I haven't come across that on here at all, but my upbringing was loosely church of Scotland protestant, and it was expected (at home to some extent, at school to more,that as a kid, I'd go to church and unquestioningly accept what was being said. I also have a relation down south who is a baptist. I don't like the way he tries to heatedly lead others to the righteous path.

I'm not for a minute saying I've had an upbringing like e.g. the third world! But you'd accept Andy that there are some whose life revolves around faith who try to aggressively recruit others to the church? Another question which links back to the OP.

T, why does this link back to the OP, it wouldn’t seem that aggression was involved? I don’t know any of the instances, but ‘heatedly leading’ or ‘aggressively recruiting’ doesn’t seem to me to tie in with respect or the Gospel much...I not denying it can occur though. But, what is the point of someone being personally offensive or repellant? There is none. That’s not to say that in the right circumstances someone shouldn’t be able to put forward what they believe the Bible to say/their views. But insensitivity, if it happens, is arguably a lack of proper communication or consideration – but not really aggression. I suppose we can all be a bit oversensitive (British characteristic?) sometimes. When I lived in London, I regarded groups like the ‘Living marxists’, or the apparent cult “Central London Church of Christ” as fairly confrontational, but for me it seemed like a chance to discuss things, and if they felt like getting agitated, start smiling more.

 

[Mr Pig]

By the way, Mr Pig, do you really believe that evolution is an unlikely theory? I ask because I'm interested to know what you see as the alternatives.

Yes. We've already filled a long thread on the subject but to reiterate, I believe that the intricate, clever design evident in life forms overwhelmingly suggests the hand of a designer.

Humans have problems comprehending the scale and reach of a designer capable of creating the universe but that's not a good reason not to believe there is one. We see the universe as inconceivably large, God sees it as a temporary home He made for us to live in!

The bible does not teach that God used evolution. If He is capable of making the whole universe out of nothing why would he need to?

What we cannot see is permanent. What we can see is created and temporary. We can't imagine a dimensionality beyond time and space because we are creatures built to live within time and space. To us it is everything. Just as a man born blind and deaf cannot conceive sight or sound we cannot conceive a realm not bound by time and space.

Would the blind mute man be correct in dismissing the existence of light? He feels the warmth of the summer sun though, just as we see the work of God's hands whilst the hands themselves remain invisible to us.

What I find odd, is how rational people can have total 'faith' in there own religion, whilst knowing that but for an accident of birth they would have as strong a commitment to a different one.

What a person believes is strongly influenced by what they are taught as they grow. However each one of us are still responsible for what we choose to believe as an adult. In a court of law the fact that the young thief was taught to steal by his thieving father might be taken into account, but he'll still be tried as a thief. Being born in wrong situation doesn't make it right for you to stay in it. Being born in a right situation doesn't mean you will stay in it. What to do and where to turn will always be your choice.

 

[Cycling Naturalist]

Please tell your mate to go on the Alpha course.Then come back and tell us what happened.

What if the mate doesn't come back?

 

[Mr Pig]

I'm not going over this all over again. You are free to believe what you want to, so am I. Endless tit for tat exchanges benefit no one and bore many, including me! ;0)

 

[Rhythm Thief]

I love how as a christian i get labelled a bigot because i would prefer to marry someone who shares my belief, but actually many of the most offensive, bigoted people are those trying to denigrate my faith.

You are not labelled a bigot because you are a Christian.

One is labelled a bigot if one's belief leads one to discrimnate against someone else.

I'm not denigrating your faith. You're free to believe what you will.

For me, none of it stands up to any scrutiny and scurtiny is something rarley undertaken by people with 'faith'.

Jim's point quoted here is pretty much my stance too. I wouldn't want to be seen as denying people the right to believe what they want to believe, but equally I reserve the right to say that I don't believe it and give my reasons. After all, if someone told me they believed their radio contained a little man who read out all the programmes, I wouldn't believe that and I'd tell them why not. Why is religion seen as a special case which everyone should respect?

 

[Rhythm Thief]

My point is that 'God' is not a meaningful answer to the question.

"God" is not an answer to any question, really. It's merely an excuse to stop thinking about it. A bit like "Instinct".

 

[Andy in Sig]

Exactly...and it wasn't you I meant!!

I do get pretty sick of the God bashing on this forum. I don't bash other people's beliefs or what they like doing or believe. If I was a muslim, you'd all be a lot more careful in how you criticised my faith there. It feels like there's total freedom to slag christianity off simply because people don't agree with it, and put me down as a poor, deluded fool.

You may think i am a poor deluded fool, you might be right. But I honestly believe that my faith makes me a better person and for the majority of christians I think their faith makes them at least try to be better people. Yes we may have views society at large disagrees with. Yes, there will be some people who thrust their views down people's throats (those people annoy and frustrate other christians as well) but most christians are just damn nice people who try to do good rather than harm and would NEVER speak about you lot in the way some of you speak about christians.

I'm off to work now, so i'm not sulking, I promise.

Cathryn,

I wouldn't bother too much about this. I'm areligious. In fact I'm even anti-religion but I have noticed over the years that good people (i.e. people who are basically well disposed to their fellow humans) find a focus and outlet for their goodness in their religion, irrespective of the type of religion.

And FWIW Islam gets as much, if not more, stick on Politics and Life for what it says and for what is done in its name. Nonetheless the above paragraph applies just as much to good people who are muslims (and hindus, jews, and whatever else you can think of).