Charlie Alliston case - fixie rider accused of causing pedestrian death

[GrumpyGregry]

To my surprise you're right.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/q2-london-bus-safety-dashboard.pdf

Although when you realise that London buses drive half a billion km per year that puts it rather into perspective....
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-bus-network-statistics.pdf

You've fallen for exactly the same kind of denominator neglect as people who think that cycling in London is dangerous.

With respect you are in danger of sounding like you have fallen for the "acceptable price to pay" position.

So what if they drive even a billion km a year, that level of KSI should be unacceptable, and surely would not be in any other workplace but the roads of London.

 

[bigjim]

It's also a fact that one cyclist dies in London every five weeks. But that doesn't make it a useful fact.

Like I thought, there's a subtext going on.

Useful to me in an altercation with a bus driver. What it is to you, I couldn't really care less. You seem to think a bit too much, IMO.

 

[srw]

With respect you are in danger of sounding like you have fallen for the "acceptable price to pay" position.

So what if they drive even a billion km a year, that level of KSI should be unacceptable, and surely would not be in any other workplace but the roads of London.

Unless you've got an infinite budget or don't travel anywhere some level of risk is inevitable. It may be politically unpalatable, and lead to some conversations some people would rather not have, but it remains a fact that if we are to have transport we are going to be exposed to risk. I'd rather that risk level were lower than it is, but it seems to me that an adult conversation about the balance between affordable bus fares and public safety is a healthy conversation to be having.

If that gets caricatured as talking about "an acceptable price to pay" or (rather sweetly) "thinking too much", so be it.

 

[srw]

Useful to me in an altercation with a bus driver. What it is to you, I couldn't really care less. You seem to think a bit too much, IMO.

I don't suppose the bus drivers much like killing people either. You'd do better to have the conversation with politicians who control budgets.

 

[numbnuts]

Alliston will be sentenced on 18 September, tonight could be his last night of freedom for a while

 

[theclaud]

Unless you've got an infinite budget or don't travel anywhere some level of risk is inevitable. It may be politically unpalatable, and lead to some conversations some people would rather not have, but it remains a fact that if we are to have transport we are going to be exposed to risk. I'd rather that risk level were lower than it is, but it seems to me that an adult conversation about the balance between affordable bus fares and public safety is a healthy conversation to be having.

If that gets caricatured as talking about "an acceptable price to pay" or (rather sweetly) "thinking too much", so be it.

If I were you I'd have the thinking too much line as a sig. Surely the point is not that anyone expects bus drivers never to have killed anyone, but that when a bus driver does kill someone we will look at how it happened, the driver, operators and other responsible parties will be held accountable and steps will be taken to avoid repeat incidents. That isn't what happens, and we see the same pattern of killing and maiming repeated time and time again.

 

[srw]

That isn't what happens, and we see the same pattern of killing and maiming repeated time and time again.

Judging by the statistics I linked to, and the fact that TFL publishes fatal investigations it is beginning to. Which is a Good Thing.

And reviewing that data, of course @bigjim is wrong. TFL bus drivers don't kill one person every three weeks. People die, on average, once every three weeks, in incidents involving TFL buses. Sometimes they are killed by buses, sometimes they are killed by other passengers, sometimes they just die on the bus of natural causes.

The parallels with cyclist deaths are instructive. It's not true that 100 people or so are killed while cycling each year. It's true that 100 people or so die and are flagged as cyclist deaths. But a good proportion of them just die, or suffer catastrophic bike failure, or overjudge their ability on gnarly downhill singletrack.

 

[theclaud]

overjudge their ability on gnarly downhill singletrack.

I love it when you say stuff like that.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Unless you've got an infinite budget or don't travel anywhere some level of risk is inevitable. It may be politically unpalatable, and lead to some conversations some people would rather not have, but it remains a fact that if we are to have transport we are going to be exposed to risk. I'd rather that risk level were lower than it is, but it seems to me that an adult conversation about the balance between affordable bus fares and public safety is a healthy conversation to be having.

If that gets caricatured as talking about "an acceptable price to pay" or (rather sweetly) "thinking too much", so be it.

We are not talking about the risk of KSI's on our roads but the reality. The actual reality. We aren't talking about conversations but lives ruined, avoidably. The affordability of London bus fares is a bit of red herring. Govt is happy subsidise a great many things, and a great many things in London, that it regards as priorities, so why not the cost of the less dangerous transport system for London? Because a few ksi a year are the acceptable price to pay.

 

[Arjimlad]

18 months

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Sentence passed for causing bodily harm is 18 months in prison.

Be ready for the next two weeks of mainstream media piling on again and soundbites from peanuts calling for restrictive legislation against people cycling.

 

[MacB]

Shockingly bad decision IMO

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Shockingly bad decision IMO

Too harsh, too lenient, et cetera?

 

[MacB]

Too harsh, too lenient, et cetera?

Too harsh and, hateful a person as so many found him, do we think those 18 months are going to create an improvement?

 

[User482]

Too harsh, too lenient, et cetera?

It does feel like he has been held to a higher standard than would be expected of a motorist.