Charlie Alliston case - fixie rider accused of causing pedestrian death

[rliu]

As an old boss used to say "We've all got a ****ing story".

What about the suicide attempt and Maudsley hospital stays then?

 

[adscrim]

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.u...ing_death_by_driving_definitive_guideline.pdf


Do we? Do we really? Or do we just assume we do because of what gets reported by the press?

For what it's worth, the CPS guidelines are online: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.u...ing_death_by_driving_definitive_guideline.pdf

Is death by dangerous driving the correct comparison? Surely, comparing his actions to someone in a car that wasn't road worthy is more appropriate. If you caused a death and it's found that you're brakes were defective, or you'd failed an MOT, or your tyres were worn beyond legal limits, etc - how likely is it that you'd get a custodial sentence.

EDIT - looks like driving a knowingly defective vehicle is considered 'Dangerous' for the purposes of death by convictions. Make sense when I think about it!

 

[MacB]

What about the suicide attempt and Maudsley hospital stays then?

Do you think that matters to the 'hang em high' brigade that's emerging on here?

 

[mjr]

Far cheaper to give everyone a proximity tag and insist they carry it to avoid getting squashed.

Big Brother would love it.

Do you mean Cycle Alert? https://www.cyclechat.net/posts/3554352

[QUOTE 4958986, member: 43827"]Agreed, and describing his actions as ridiculous (deserving ridicule or derision) shows a skewed perspective from oldstrath imo.[/QUOTE]
I think campaigning for disproportionate time and focus to be spent on that rare cause of death instead of the majority caused by motoring does deserve ridicule more than many initiatives, in the hope that it'll stop that distraction contributing to far more deaths from the common causes. I'm sorry for his loss but that shouldn't give him a free pass to be irrational with impunity. His suggestion that we should devote loads of time to legislative amendments to introduce yet more lesser offences than manslaughter for cycling should have been laughed out of existance by now - it would be more logical to remove the motorists' friends "causing death by..." offences, or at least make the CPS prosecute manslaughter alongside them whenever reasonable.

It's true that 100 people or so die and are flagged as cyclist deaths. But a good proportion of them just die, or suffer catastrophic bike failure, or overjudge their ability on gnarly downhill singletrack.

Aren't the ones who are found to "just die" excluded from official road casualty fatalities?

Sentence passed for causing bodily harm is 18 months in prison.

BBC reports young offenders' institution, not prison, at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-41306738

 

[GrumpyGregry]

What about the suicide attempt and Maudsley hospital stays then?

Tragically a great many teenagers attempt suicide*, and self-harm, in response to far less traumatic events than the unexpected death of a parent.

That a lawyer would attempt to use Charlie's back-story by way of mitigation comes as no surprise. They are paid to argue. He behaved oafishly in the aftermath of this tragedy and no doubt has regretted doing so since he went to court. We've all got a story. The trick is to let the story influence your behaviour before you **** up not to use it as an excuse afterwards.

*self included.

 

[srw]

Is death by dangerous driving the correct comparison? Surely, comparing his actions to someone in a car that wasn't road worthy is more appropriate. If you caused a death and it's found that you're brakes were defective, or you'd failed an MOT, or your tyres were worn beyond legal limits, etc - how likely is it that you'd get a custodial sentence.

Those are the guidelines for causing death by driving - including the various flavours, including the ones Alliston was judged against.

Aren't the ones who are found to "just die" excluded from official road casualty fatalities?

I don't believe so, but I've never found concrete proof one way or the other. I believe the stats are simply created by identifying road deaths tagged with a "cyclist" tag. Somewhere else, @GrumpyGregry recently posted statistics which implied that only a third of cyclist deaths involved a motor vehicle.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Do you think that matters to the 'hang em high' brigade that's emerging on here?

Don't see anyone on here demanding a stiffer sentence. What he got is only 3/4 of the maximum. His actions had catastrophic consequences and no one compelled the foolish youth to behave in the way he did.

 

[MacB]

Tragically a great many teenagers attempt suicide*, and self-harm, in response to far less traumatic events than the unexpected death of a parent.

That a lawyer would attempt to use Charlie's back-story by way of mitigation comes as no surprise. They are paid to argue. He behaved oafishly in the aftermath of this tragedy and no doubt has regretted doing so since he went to court. We've all got a story. The trick is to let the story influence your behaviour before you **** up not to use it as an excuse afterwards.

*self included.

Wow, all heart there buddy, I am really uncomfortable with the amount of focus on his oafish behaviour...anyone would think he really got the sentence for being a dick rather than the accident....still an accident IMO by the way

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Those are the guidelines for causing death by driving - including the various flavours, including the ones Alliston was judged against.



I don't believe so, but I've never found concrete proof one way or the other. I believe the stats are simply created by identifying road deaths tagged with a "cyclist" tag. Somewhere else, @GrumpyGregry recently posted statistics which implied that only a third of cyclist deaths involved a motor vehicle.

Less than 25% of my offs involve motor vehicles. I only need my own stupidity and clumsiness to harm myself.

 

[MacB]

Don't see anyone on here demanding a stiffer sentence. What he got is only 3/4 of the maximum. His actions had catastrophic consequences and no one compelled the foolish youth to behave in the way he did.

Greg, really? read what you keep typing, clearly this has triggered something, but these posts don't seem like you.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Wow, all heart there buddy, I am really uncomfortable with the amount of focus on his oafish behaviour...anyone would think he really got the sentence for being a dick rather than the accident....still an accident IMO by the way

Another person died. My sympathy lies with her and those she left behind.

 

[rliu]

Tragically a great many teenagers attempt suicide*, and self-harm, in response to far less traumatic events than the unexpected death of a parent.

That a lawyer would attempt to use Charlie's back-story by way of mitigation comes as no surprise. They are paid to argue. He behaved oafishly in the aftermath of this tragedy and no doubt has regretted doing so since he went to court. We've all got a story. The trick is to let the story influence your behaviour before you **** up not to use it as an excuse afterwards.

*self included.

Well it'd be incredible for a 18 year old to show that level of self awareness.

The way I see it he's a damaged young man who took to thrill seeking via riding illegal fixed wheel bikes, as both a hobby and initially a part of a courier job. He didn't go out that day to kill someone or cause a collision. He acted stupidly to be riding an illegal bike but jailing a mentally vulnerable man for an accident is harsh to me.

And that's leaving aside the issue of the media smear campaign against him, which attacked him for having a neck tattoo and for not walking to court everyday with tears smeared all over his face.

 

[MacB]

Another person died. My sympathy lies with her and those she left behind.

Ok then, I'm bowing out of this

 

[mjr]

I don't believe so, but I've never found concrete proof one way or the other.

Page 72 of the current (2011) STATS20: "'Fatal' injury includes only those cases where death occurs in less than 30 days as a result of the accident. 'Fatal' does not include death from natural causes or suicide" (thanks to Norfolk County Council's Analyst for the reference) - edit: and the Reported Road Casualties of GB figures compiled from such reports are what's usually reported as the headline figures.

 

[Mr Celine]

Is death by dangerous driving the correct comparison? Surely, comparing his actions to someone in a car that wasn't road worthy is more appropriate. If you caused a death and it's found that you're brakes were defective, or you'd failed an MOT, or your tyres were worn beyond legal limits, etc - how likely is it that you'd get a custodial sentence.

The going rate use to be a £45 fine per cyclist killed. That was in 2006.