Profpointy
Legendary Member
Keeping steel chains inside the engine seemed to work better still !
Car D.I.Y.
- Thread starter Drago
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Keeping steel chains inside the engine seemed to work better still !
Adam4868
Legendary Member
Cheaper to put a rubber belt on it and pass the cost on to the customer....what could go wrong 🙄
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Drago
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- Suburban Poshshire
Although when chains cause problems - and they do - your wallet will be wishing it were an easily accessible, quiet, low friction, low inertia, rubber belt.
Profpointy
Legendary Member
But the point is they very rarely do cause problems. OK it could happen, but it tends not to. I vaguely recall stories of Honda motorcycle camchain tensioners being a bit shonky in the 70s, but I have heard numerous personal accounts of cambelt failures as well as "everyone knows" stories about Lancias or whatever. I don't think I've ever heard anyone's personal account of a chain issue.
Regarding friction: aren't chains slightly more efficient than belts, hence, at least in part (there are other snags) people not being keen on them for bikes. Drive belts are rare on motorcycles, where efficiency is perhaps less of an issue outwith racing. The benefit of a motorcycle drive belt is supposedly less maintenance, which doesn't apply with a cam chain which is well lubricated and protected from water and dirt
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Drago
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- Suburban Poshshire
Chains cause a lot more problems than is widely acknowledged. Or more usually tensioners or idlers go south and that in turn borks the chain. Chain problems are probably as common as neglect induced dry belt failure, if not more so.
Even worse, because chains, like wet belts, were intended to last the life of the engine they weren't designed to be easily replaced and in many cases require the engine be removed in order to effect a replacement. This isn't difficult, but is very labour intensive and hence very spendy, as many a BMW owner has discovered.
An external belt, diligently replaced as per schedule, is liable to be the most reliable solution.
Even worse, because chains, like wet belts, were intended to last the life of the engine they weren't designed to be easily replaced and in many cases require the engine be removed in order to effect a replacement. This isn't difficult, but is very labour intensive and hence very spendy, as many a BMW owner has discovered.
An external belt, diligently replaced as per schedule, is liable to be the most reliable solution.
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raleighnut
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The CBX 550 was the notorious one.
Try owning one of those hateful chain driven 1.2 VW engines and report back. Mine cost a fortune to replace the chain and nobody wanted to take on the job of replacing it. The mileage wasn't even high by modern standards.
They're a easy to deal with. We had a VW Polo 1.2. I kept it in good condition with oil changes every 5k miles.
My neighbour bought one on the back of my recommendation!
Except his Mrs bought it in a rush from a used dealer. It almost immediately put on the check engine light, after they found dealer had put black tape over bulb.
When I got to hear it start, it sounded like a bag of spanners for 5 secs then quietened down. I told him it would need a chain timing kit.
My mate spent the next year suing the garage for a full refund. He never got the money even though winning the case in small claims. He did manage to close the business down ( probably only temporarily).
He then spent £450 for local garage to put new chain, sprockets, and tensioner on. Sounded much much better since them, despite having over 120k miles. I think their daughter still drive it. It has had several little faults, common ones, oxygen sensors, low coolant warning. But it's still going
Profpointy
Legendary Member
Ah yes, I seem to remember the tensioner was said to be the issue. I never owned one, nor even knew anyone who had one, but that was the oft' repeated wisdom
Dispatch riders nearly all had a CX500 so they can't have been too bad
Loved the CX500, never could afford one as a kid. Then the CBX1000 straight six, was gorgeous to look at. Not great handling, again plagued with timing chain issues.
Profpointy
Legendary Member
One thought - and it is just a thought. Camchains were very much a life-of-the-engine thing, but, as Drago pointed out, you likely have to lift the engine out and probably take it half to bits to replace them if they need doing. Back in the day 100,000 was a perfectly acceptable life for an engine before expecting a major overhaul. Now you'd expect double that, so perhaps camchain life is now a more part of that calculation?
The replaceable cambelt is only an improvement (assuming my guess above has any validity) if it is a reasonable accessible item without pulling the engine out or otherwise taking half the car to bits. Maybe £200 to £300 including the belt itself is acceptable for a 50,000 mile "consumable".
The replaceable cambelt is only an improvement (assuming my guess above has any validity) if it is a reasonable accessible item without pulling the engine out or otherwise taking half the car to bits. Maybe £200 to £300 including the belt itself is acceptable for a 50,000 mile "consumable".
Modern engines are supposed to have longer life, but in reality dont. I put this down to servicing, and main dealer charge out rates for basics. Owners on the whole don't service their own cars.
My sister husband, 40 year jaguar mechanic, always used to say, we would fix our cars every weekend to keep them going during the week.
Rarely will you see a bloke on his drive or on the side of the road doing an oil change. Cars get neglected, items begin to wear, then big labour jobs for small parts are needed.
I checked up on our C3 wet belt service intervals- early advice was 90k miles, then several years later 60k miles for replacement. But you can find many videos of vehicles needing belts changes at 40k miles- probably due to poor maintenance.
If manufacturers were honest and said up front, belt needs replacement at 40k, charge a low price, people wouldn't quibble. BUT dealers charge ridiculous labour rates for these jobs. Cheapest price I got for our C3 wet belt was around £900. Belt, tensioner is around £100. If I bought the cam locking kit around £60, its a weekend job.
Profpointy
Legendary Member
Quite telling your use of the phrase "weekend job". By comparison I did an engine swap on my 68 Cortina on my own in the rain, though the rain likely speeded up my work! Granted the Cortina was a very basic car and incredibly easy to work on. I needed a whole weekend to lift or replace the engine in my metro as it was a lot more tricky, though my mini-racing pal could doubtless do it in a couple of hours
raleighnut
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- One of the 'Elite'
The CX was bulletptoof, dog slow but reliable and quite good on fuel.
I knew a couple of people with the CBX 550, one of them went through 4 camchain tensioners under warranty but they had a very 'peaky' camshaft so all the power was at the top end.
Profpointy
Legendary Member
I think "dog slow" might be a bit harsh given it likley had the same power as my Cortina back then !
