Bicycle fitting nightmare

[youngoldbloke]

"In my view trying to work from a host of different formulas won't give you the answer ... There's no doubt the various techniques and formulas give a good starting point but the fine adjustment will always be by "feel." I also suggest once you're 90/95% happy go for a ride taking Allen keys with you, stop and make adjustments along the way"

Spot on!

 

[cyberknight]

It is surprising how much difference that 2cm actually makes in reality.

I just raised my saddle 3 mm as it had slipped and I could feel it as I was sitting further back

 

[TK421]

trying to work from a host of different formulas

I would say that is my problem.

 

[vickster]

Just ride your bike and see how it feels, tweak if uncomfortable. Forget the drops for now

 

[Peter Salt]

Jesus Christ, somehow missed this thread and now it's 9 pages of one bloke trying to fit a bike while others watch.

@Aluminum Falcon, I haven't read the whole thing, no doubt there's a million different methods that people now gave you. Someone probably even linked that PDF with a pensioner demonstrating a fit, including dropping a plum line from his knee and whatnot - all the while remaining completely stationary in his garage

Here's the crux of it: There is no real method. Everyone is different. The bicycle is symmetrical and you're not. You move on the bike all the time - you don't move if you fit it in your back yard. On a long ride you become tired and your position changes. Etc, etc, etc.

Set the bike to what feels comfortable, in your garden, and then take it out for a ride. Depending on how the ride felt, make adjustments on a trial and error basis. There you go - all sorted

 

[TK421]

Going to bow to superior knowledge and post again in the new year after some proper riding and fettling.
Many thanks to all for posting.
Enjoy the festivities and all the best.
TTFN

 

[cyberknight]

Update when you can @Aluminum Falcon , im hoping you get it sorted

 

[TK421]

Update when you can @Aluminum Falcon , im hoping you get it sorted

Will do soon. Been keeping notes. Planning an update on the 'Falcon over in the project forum.

 

[TK421]

So here is my (war and peace sized) update.
17-12-22
Adjusted seat to LeMond method (Calculated 76x0.883=67.108 currently the height in use) and checked against 109% (76x1.09=82.83) which was slightly lower. I was unable to to mount, but I think that that was just me being tired and inflexible.
Moved seat all the way back with no more rearward adjustment.
18-12-22
Put RHS pedal to BDC and mounted cycle. Checked heel on pedal at BDC which worked. Able to lock knee at BDC. Still able to touch the floor with toe of left foot, but only just.
20-12-22
Test ride 1
Seat height OK but very uncomfortable. Steering felt wobbly. Pressure in hands moved to index/forefinger area. Unstable but could move hands around tops and hoods.
Tune up 1
Checked seat angle and adjusted to -2.5° . Lowered hoods slightly rotating bars.
Test ride 2
Seat height OK but still uncomfortable although not as bad. Steering felt wobbly again, possibly due to higher seat (higher CoG). Able to move hands to from hoods to drops with difficulty and very wobbly.
Tune up 2
Swapped -18° 90mm stem for -4° 100mm stem. Rotated the bars forward slightly to set the hoods lower.
21-22-22
Able to move hands from hoods to drops but pain/stiffness is lower neck within 300 yards of starting to cycle.
Went to a bike shop to see their bike fitting staff member. I was told that the seat was 20mm too low and too far back, my kneecap was 50mm too far back, the seat nose too far down, the bars were too high on the steerer, and to ignore forums. I was also told my calculations were nonsense. He asked why I was not using clipped or clipless pedals. I replied that I'm still learning to ride properly. He was not impressed. I was not impressed by him spinning QR spindle bolt to remove it from the back wheel. Staff member had a very negative vibe. A 45 mile round trip for unpleasant/bland experience.
I stumbled across BestBikeAdvice (while searching for in person bike fitters near me) and did the online bike fit. It's very informative and interesting asking for seven different physical measurements. It gives advice about how to set up a cycle, dimensions plus what to look for when buying a new bicycle.
BestBikeAdvice fit recommendations were to set the seat height at 66.6cm (slightly lower than I am using, so I left it as is.) from BB centre to seat top, set the seat setback to 3.5cm from seat nose to BB centre, set the seat back away from the bars by 48.2cm including the stem, and to set the bar height to 4.9cm below seat height.
If I am buying a new bicycle then the recommended reach is from 340mm to 390mm and the recommended stack is between 480mm and 540mm.
22-12-22
Adjusted seat height up slightly, levelled the seat properly (as advised) using a spirit level, adjusted seat setback, adjusted handlebar height down, discovered that I was wrong about the reach and drop on the Specialized handlebars (actually 75mm reach and 123mm drop not 100mm reach and 140mm drop), swapped the 100mm stem for the 90mm stem again.
I swapped the Specialized handlebars for the Prime Doyenne aero bars and thought "maybe not?". It's only the fact that I could thread the cables into the bars that made me hesitant about staying with the Specialized handlebars.
24-22-22
I was still undecided to go with the aero bars.
Having made all the recommended changes from BestBikeAdvice to the Aluminum Falcon I had a chance for a test ride before taping the bars and everything felt good and comfortable, apart from the seat. Then the front brake cable stuck due to loose filaments. This helped me with the decision to go with the aero bars and thread the cables. Then I got slightly sidetracked changing the chain and replacing the bottom pulley wheel on the rear derailleur.
25-22-22
Finished threading the cables through the doyenne bars complete with trimming the excess cables, both inner and outer, and capping the cable ends.
26-22-22
Scared myself with the task of taping the handlebars but watched the Park Tools and GCN YouTube videos on handlebar taping before starting. Took the whole process slowly and carefully and didn't end up in tears. Surprised myself that I actually managed to do it first time round.
27-12-22 to 2-1-23
Just testing and adjusting the seat angle to get back to comfortable before adjusting the setback or height to help with the shoulder and neck pain. I've also been doing some exercises to help with my core strength as that is undoubtedly part of the problem.
I am convinced that the spirit level laid on top of the seat from front to back isn't the best idea for levelling as it doesn't take into account the upwards sweep of the back of the seat and therefore places the nose of the seat pointing upwards.

 

[ColinJ]

I am convinced that the spirit level laid on top of the seat from front to back isn't the best idea for levelling as it doesn't take into account the upwards sweep of the back of the seat and therefore places the nose of the seat pointing upwards.

Ha ha - that reminds me of this experience...

I was once on a training camp near Benidorm when former pro Marcel Wüst was one of the guest riders. I limped back from one long training ride and said hello to Herr Wüst, who was sunning himself on the lawn outside his room. He took one look at my bike and leapt to his feet, declaring that my saddle angle was "not correct" - very German! He insisted on levelling it so that the back and front were at the same height, but as you point out slow down - that makes the front part slope upwards. I only managed to ride about 1 km with the saddle like that and I got the dreaded numb nuts syndrome. I adjusted it back to my preferred 'front section level' setting and had no further problems with it.

 

[cyberknight]

sounds like a lot of fun ...........
Bike fit is so personal even fitters who go by the numbers can get it wrong especially if they stick blindly to what they think work rather than working with a person as we are not all 20 something race snakes and is an ongoing process of tweak and see along with change as your body changes which unless you have many years of riding under your belt and know what feels wrong for you can be a headache as you have found out .
With regards saddle ignore the bit at the back where it goes up seems to work for me so the level sits on the nose and at the back before it goes up .

 

[Jameshow]

So here is my (war and peace sized) update.
17-12-22
Adjusted seat to LeMond method (Calculated 76x0.883=67.108 currently the height in use) and checked against 109% (76x1.09=82.83) which was slightly lower. I was unable to to mount, but I think that that was just me being tired and inflexible.
Moved seat all the way back with no more rearward adjustment.
18-12-22
Put RHS pedal to BDC and mounted cycle. Checked heel on pedal at BDC which worked. Able to lock knee at BDC. Still able to touch the floor with toe of left foot, but only just.
20-12-22
Test ride 1
Seat height OK but very uncomfortable. Steering felt wobbly. Pressure in hands moved to index/forefinger area. Unstable but could move hands around tops and hoods.
Tune up 1
Checked seat angle and adjusted to -2.5° . Lowered hoods slightly rotating bars.
Test ride 2
Seat height OK but still uncomfortable although not as bad. Steering felt wobbly again, possibly due to higher seat (higher CoG). Able to move hands to from hoods to drops with difficulty and very wobbly.
Tune up 2
Swapped -18° 90mm stem for -4° 100mm stem. Rotated the bars forward slightly to set the hoods lower.
21-22-22
Able to move hands from hoods to drops but pain/stiffness is lower neck within 300 yards of starting to cycle.
Went to a bike shop to see their bike fitting staff member. I was told that the seat was 20mm too low and too far back, my kneecap was 50mm too far back, the seat nose too far down, the bars were too high on the steerer, and to ignore forums. I was also told my calculations were nonsense. He asked why I was not using clipped or clipless pedals. I replied that I'm still learning to ride properly. He was not impressed. I was not impressed by him spinning QR spindle bolt to remove it from the back wheel. Staff member had a very negative vibe. A 45 mile round trip for unpleasant/bland experience.
I stumbled across BestBikeAdvice (while searching for in person bike fitters near me) and did the online bike fit. It's very informative and interesting asking for seven different physical measurements. It gives advice about how to set up a cycle, dimensions plus what to look for when buying a new bicycle.
BestBikeAdvice fit recommendations were to set the seat height at 66.6cm (slightly lower than I am using, so I left it as is.) from BB centre to seat top, set the seat setback to 3.5cm from seat nose to BB centre, set the seat back away from the bars by 48.2cm including the stem, and to set the bar height to 4.9cm below seat height.
If I am buying a new bicycle then the recommended reach is from 340mm to 390mm and the recommended stack is between 480mm and 540mm.
22-12-22
Adjusted seat height up slightly, levelled the seat properly (as advised) using a spirit level, adjusted seat setback, adjusted handlebar height down, discovered that I was wrong about the reach and drop on the Specialized handlebars (actually 75mm reach and 123mm drop not 100mm reach and 140mm drop), swapped the 100mm stem for the 90mm stem again.
I swapped the Specialized handlebars for the Prime Doyenne aero bars and thought "maybe not?". It's only the fact that I could thread the cables into the bars that made me hesitant about staying with the Specialized handlebars.
24-22-22
I was still undecided to go with the aero bars.
Having made all the recommended changes from BestBikeAdvice to the Aluminum Falcon I had a chance for a test ride before taping the bars and everything felt good and comfortable, apart from the seat. Then the front brake cable stuck due to loose filaments. This helped me with the decision to go with the aero bars and thread the cables. Then I got slightly sidetracked changing the chain and replacing the bottom pulley wheel on the rear derailleur.
25-22-22
Finished threading the cables through the doyenne bars complete with trimming the excess cables, both inner and outer, and capping the cable ends.
26-22-22
Scared myself with the task of taping the handlebars but watched the Park Tools and GCN YouTube videos on handlebar taping before starting. Took the whole process slowly and carefully and didn't end up in tears. Surprised myself that I actually managed to do it first time round.
27-12-22 to 2-1-23
Just testing and adjusting the seat angle to get back to comfortable before adjusting the setback or height to help with the shoulder and neck pain. I've also been doing some exercises to help with my core strength as that is undoubtedly part of the problem.
I am convinced that the spirit level laid on top of the seat from front to back isn't the best idea for levelling as it doesn't take into account the upwards sweep of the back of the seat and therefore places the nose of the seat pointing upwards.

I'm guessing it depends on the saddle many modern ones are quite flat so a level saddle is ideal.

However many such as charge spoon, rolls, turbo, brooks have a bit of shape so the back bit needs to be slight uphill!

If you get any numbness then the position is wrong tilt it forward.

 

[cyberknight]

I'm guessing it depends on the saddle many modern ones are quite flat so a level saddle is ideal.

However many such as charge spoon, rolls, turbo, brooks have a bit of shape so the back bit needs to be slight uphill!

If you get any numbness then the position is wrong tilt it forward.

indeed i have spoons ...

 

[PaulSB]

I'm exhausted just reading this. I can't begin to explain why but I'm left with the feeling you've managed to overthink and make very complicated the simple task of setting up your seat height and position. It really isn't as difficult as this.

I went back to look at your photos. The bike looks small for you.

 

[Jameshow]

View attachment 669897

View attachment 669898

View attachment 669899
Do these help?

Possibly but as the op said he's got fairly short legs Vs longer torso so it's always going to be a compromise between the two. A longer stem might help?