Armstrong charged and banned

[lukesdad]

This is simply not true. Most observers believe Wiggins and Evans, to name but two, are clean. Evans would have won a few more TdFs if that was true albeit at a slightly slower pace than the cheats who did win.

Im not sure which part you re saying is not true rich. US postal were powerful in and out of the peleton because of money, it s the same with SKY and in the past Renault and others. Money makes the playing field skewed before you even turn a wheel.

The UCI FIA and the FA all bow before money.

 

[lukesdad]

A peloton containing the likes of Basso, Ullrich, Kloden et al...

d.

Exactly.

 

[rich p]

Im not sure which part you re saying is not true rich. US postal were powerful in and out of the peleton because of money, it s the same with SKY and in the past Renault and others. Money makes the playing field skewed before you even turn a wheel.

I'm disputing that the severity of the route makes them cheat. I believe Evans and Wiggins to be clean and still do well in the TdF. Evans won it and Wiggins came 4th behind 2 or 3 dopers. So it can be done clean.

 

[Noodley]

Of course it can be done clean.
Anyone who thinks otherwise adds to the problem.

 

[lukesdad]

I'm disputing that the severity of the route makes them cheat. I believe Evans and Wiggins to be clean and still do well in the TdF. Evans won it and Wiggins came 4th behind 2 or 3 dopers. So it can be done clean.

Ah I see, do you still think it can be done against a super team tho if all other things are equal ? I think not.

 

[Andrew_P]

I'm disputing that the severity of the route makes them cheat. I believe Evans and Wiggins to be clean and still do well in the TdF. Evans won it and Wiggins came 4th behind 2 or 3 dopers. So it can be done clean.

I think the times expected are an indicator of what the TdF expects of its competitors. Given a bit more time I am sure I could complete the course, at maybe 8-10mph over a couple of months, but the speeds expected the climbing the amount of rest and the minimum stage finish times seem, to me, to force some super human effort to win let alone complete the full TdF.

 

[Pottsy]

Can someone give me a brief, couple of paragraph summary of 'the Simeoni incident'? I have a vague recollection of it being some kind of Armstrong policing and telling off, but that's all I remember.

 

[raindog]

Can someone give me a brief, couple of paragraph summary of 'the Simeoni incident'? I have a vague recollection of it being some kind of Armstrong policing and telling off, but that's all I remember.

you can read about Bassons while you're there - I'll post the vid later
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bassons-and-simeoni-say-armstrong-probe-is-overdue

 

[lukesdad]

Of course it can be done clean.
Anyone who thinks otherwise adds to the problem.

The french don't think it can be done full stop ! Hence their own little battles for honour within GTs and good on 'em,racing as it should be, sod the money and the drugs.

 

[rich p]

Ah I see, do you still think it can be done against a super team tho if all other things are equal ? I think not.

I'm not sure what your point is Ld. I think super teams assist the main riders, of course. I'm saying that you don't have to be doped to win or complete or compete. Wiggins finished 4th behind 2 or 3 dopers with an unfancied, non-super team. So, yes, it's possible.

 

[rich p]

I think the times expected are an indicator of what the TdF expects of its competitors. Given a bit more time I am sure I could complete the course, at maybe 8-10mph over a couple of months, but the speeds expected the climbing the amount of rest and the minimum stage finish times seem, to me, to force some super human effort to win let alone complete the full TdF.

Well, as I've said before ad nauseam, Evans and Wiggins (who I believe to be clean) have done the tour very well. Evans has won it!! Not super human, just brilliant athletes who train like buggery.
The Disco, USP boys were super human in that they either faded back into ordinariness after leaving or got caught using products. No-one calls Popovych superhuman these days but I remember him blasting up the mountains at the head of the Disco team - that's a super team. One so dosed up that no-one could live with the pace.

 

[swansonj]

Quite. I remember watching the Simeoni incident unfolding on live TV and wondering what the hell was going on. Whatever it was, it wasn't bike racing.

Surely part of what contributes to winning in any sport is establishing not just physical but psychological domination over your opponents? The particular cause of Armstrong's incident with Simeoni was drug related which puts in an unacceptable category to us as we view it now. But set the specific cause aside for the moment. I think that for a leading rider and his team to send out the message to all other riders that they are not to be messed with establishes an advantage that is likely to be to their benefit on a later occasion and is part of what it takes to win in sport at the top level. Sure, it makes you an arrogant bully, but people who win without having a streak of the arrogant bully about them, without having a willingness to dominate an opponent, are, I suspect, rare. (Senna and Schumaker won more races than Damon Hill, and Hill only won his championship by consciously becoming more selfish) This is one of the reasons why I am very happy not to be competitive.

Blaming Arnstrong for being a drug cheat and a liar and for bringing the sport into disrepute, assuming all those things be true, is fair enough. Blaming him for wanting to beat people seems a little perverse.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Blaming Arnstrong for being a drug cheat and a liar and for bringing the sport into disrepute, assuming all those things be true, is fair enough. Blaming him for wanting to beat people seems a little perverse.

That wasn't what was happening in he Simeoni incident. Armstrong was acting like a mafia heavy reminding an errant underling of the code of omerta and what happens when you break it. He effectively destroyed his career. And this, I will remind everyone once again, was not about anything Simeoni had said about Armstrong but about what he said about the incredibly dubious, Dr Ferrari...

And this isn't directed just to you, but I really wish people who come later to threads would actually take the time to read the previous contributions - some of which people actually thought about and spent some time writing - because then we might not get endless repetition of the same opinions, misconceptions and old canards...

 

[raindog]

The particular cause of Armstrong's incident with Simeoni was drug related which puts in an unacceptable category to us as we view it now.

Sorry, but it was unacceptable when we viewed it at the time, not only now.

Anyroad, here's the vid for Pottsy - starts about 40 seconds in. This bit isn't shown, but LA made the sign of the zipped-up mouth to the cameraman after he chased him down, meaning Simeoni should keep his mouth shut.


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taWGQNKUgQQ

 

[Herzog]

And this isn't directed just to you, but I really wish people who come later to threads would actually take the time to read the previous contributions - some of which people actually thought about and spent some time writing - because then we might not get endless repetition of the same opinions, misconceptions and old canards...

I think this should be displayed verbatim in any thread whenever Post Reply is hit.