Are we being forced to go electric?

[Scottish Scrutineer]

Nissan's "e-power" cars are interesting.

They are a pure EV with an onboard petrol-powered generator!
So they still have an ICE, but it has no output to the tranmission or wheels; it just keeps the battery topped up; so much so that the car never needs plugging in. In fact, there is no plug!


Seems weird but I can see what it achieves:

• Drives just like an EV (because it is an EV), so has instant power, regenerative braking, etc.
• No range anxiety (except in zero emission zones)
• The car should maintain optimum battery charge levels, avoiding cell degradation
• Car can still operate purely on battery to enter "zero emission" zones
• Engine is optimised for electricity generation (quiet, lower emissions than their traditional engines; should be light/small)
• Much simpler than a traditional hybrid
• Battery can be small, so is light/cheap

I can think of some disadvantages

• Pollition; EVs use electricity that 60% from fossils. This hybrid uses E10 which is 90% from fossils.
• Economy isn't especially impressive, 53 mpg

Seems a weird concept, but avoidance of chargers is a massive benefit for people who regularly drive long distances, or for those with no drive or lamp-post outside their residence.

The zero emission mode will have to be improved if it's to sell beyond 2030...

I'd probably argue that they are not 'pure' EV but a ba$t@rdised hybrid, still reliant upon burning fossil fuels for most of the operation with most of the emissions downsides. All that they have done is taken a hybrid and replaced the traditional ICE power transmission with a motor/generator. Yes the battery pack is smaller/lighter, but the battery only range is pitiful; reportedly 4 miles.
Granted, the ICE can be more optimally sized, and can run at optimal speed for emissions/efficiency (Atkinson cycle), but they are totally reliant on that ICE for motive power. Because they are a hybrid, they will most likely be exempt from low emissions zones restrictions, so in reality, little different from any modern ICE meeting Euro 4 or Euro 6. To me they are like a BMW i3 REX, without the battery only range.
The economy figures are indeed not that impressive, many ICE vehicles can easily achieve those figures without the complexity and costs.

There's an interesting discussion at https://www.speakev.com/threads/nissan-epower-good-or-evil.116153/

 

[lazybloke]

I'd probably argue that they are not 'pure' EV but a ba$t@rdised hybrid, still reliant upon burning fossil fuels for most of the operation with most of the emissions downsides. All that they have done is taken a hybrid and replaced the traditional ICE power transmission with a motor/generator. Yes the battery pack is smaller/lighter, but the battery only range is pitiful.
Granted, the ICE can be more optimally sized, and can run at optimal speed for emissions/efficiency, but they are reliant on that ICE for motive power. Because they are a hybrid, they will most likely be exempt from low emissions zones restrictions, so in reality, little different from any modern ICE meeting Euro 4 or Euro 6. To me they are like a BMW i3 REX, without the battery only range.
The economy figures are indeed not that impressive, many ICE vehicles can easily achieve those figures without the complexity and costs.

You seem doubtful of the BMW/Nissan developments, but with ICE sales due to cease on 1/1/2030, we need hybrid cars to improve.
Edited to add: Full EVs will likely remain too expensive to replace all ICE cars, or EV limitations will remain too great.

Hybrids are the only solution alternative until battery technology improves dramatically - I suspect the 2035 time limit for hybrid sales will be extended too.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Indeed , it’s been mentioned enough in here that the grid can cope. However the price of electric is relatively high compared to what it was . No signs that’s going to drop significantly .
News on the Radio today has been about saving electric by switching off between 5-6 tonight ? It doesn’t seem like a grid that’s going to cope with the current renewables??!!

 

[FishFright]

You seem doubtful of the BMW/Nissan developments, but with ICE sales due to cease on 1/1/2030, we need hybrid cars to improve.
Edited to add: Full EVs will likely remain too expensive to replace all ICE cars, or EV limitations will remain too great.

Hybrids are the only solution alternative until battery technology improves dramatically - I suspect the 2035 time limit for hybrid sales will be extended too.

I expect the 2035 limit changing to 2030. Mainly because hybrids are there to run out the tooling for ICE before they are sold off to the third world.

 

[Mike_P]

There's garages doing LPG conversations so whilst far more involved suspect EV conversions will be offered, at a cost.

 

[CXRAndy]

Hybrids are the only solution alternative until battery technology improves dramatically

What are you wanting from battery technology that needs to dramatically improve?

 

[icowden]

News on the Radio today has been about saving electric by switching off between 5-6 tonight ? It doesn’t seem like a grid that’s going to cope with the current renewables??!!

That's about demand at peak, not capacity. The point is to reduce demand so coal fired power stations don't have to be used. EV demand is smooth and for a continuous period - much better for energy planning.

 

[Gillstay]

I don't quite understand why people are doing their own conversions on a car where a properly designed EV version is available. I get that he was converting a 1960s mini and actually the problem was really nothing to do with the conversion itself, just where he drilled a hole.

The problem is that EV design is far more than just putting a battery in. Without an engine you hear everything. Modern EVs have a lot of soundproofing otherwise you'd be constantly hearing creaking from the car's structure. The reason that Tesla and Polestar are far superior to many of the other EVs on the road is that they were designed as EVs from the ground up. Many other manufacturers - even those using the MEB - just stick a battery in an ICE car or use ICE features and logic on the MEB Chassis.

Get a Tesla Y for 45k and you get pretty much everything (except the FSD and premium alloys / coloured paint). get an Enyak for 45k and you need to pay another 10k for everything that the Tesla already has at 44k.

I think some of it is to create guilt free classic cars, but also in the case of early fiat 500's a tiny city car that looks very cool.

 

[Milzy]

When you think of the modern slaves in the Congo on one dollar a day with baby’s strapped to their backs breathing in toxic fumes, does it make you feel guilty? They have flip flops on and no PPE. Totally exploited. Here I am mentioning my disgust on an Apple iPhone with cobolt inside. Minerals mined by slaves and the phone put together by slaves, so we can enjoy a better way of life. It’s a sick world.

 

[fossyant]

What are you wanting from battery technology that needs to dramatically improve?

Needs to be cheaper !

 

[cougie uk]

When you think of the modern slaves in the Congo on one dollar a day with baby’s strapped to their backs breathing in toxic fumes, does it make you feel guilty? They have flip flops on and no PPE. Totally exploited. Here I am mentioning my disgust on an Apple iPhone with cobolt inside. Minerals mined by slaves and the phone put together by slaves, so we can enjoy a better way of life. It’s a sick world.

And the minerals involved are used in the petroleum industry. Except there it's not possible to recycle it.

In EVs it is.

 

[vickster]

When you think of the modern slaves in the Congo on one dollar a day with baby’s strapped to their backs breathing in toxic fumes, does it make you feel guilty? They have flip flops on and no PPE. Totally exploited. Here I am mentioning my disgust on an Apple iPhone with cobolt inside. Minerals mined by slaves and the phone put together by slaves, so we can enjoy a better way of life. It’s a sick world.

Errr perhaps you shouldn’t be buying an EV given you are so outraged…and ditch the phone and all the other tech while you’re at it!

 

[icowden]

I think some of it is to create guilt free classic cars, but also in the case of early fiat 500's a tiny city car that looks very cool.

Fair play. It would be interesting to hear what they sound like without an engine!

 

[Jameshow]

That's about demand at peak, not capacity. The point is to reduce demand so coal fired power stations don't have to be used. EV demand is smooth and for a continuous period - much better for energy planning.

So coming home putting the 7kw EV on charge isn't a peak load as much as putting the kettle on at 3kw and the oven on at 4kw??

 

[icowden]

So coming home putting the 7kw EV on charge isn't a peak load as much as putting the kettle on at 3kw and the oven on at 4kw??

No. Most EVs will get put on between midnight and 2am when demand is much lower and they stay on for a long time (4 hours or so). Even if you are charging at peak, you are charging over several hours. What creates the peak in demand is everyone turning on the oven, the kettle, the TV etc when they get in from work. This means a large amount of power is needed for a very short period. There are far more people who have electric ovens and kettles than have electric cars.

Combine that with a temporary drop in renewables due to lack of wind, and you need to quickly be able to resource more energy in reserve. By asking people to avoid using the energy it ensures more reserves are available. Grid likes predictable power use. Thus if you have an EV tariff Grid can expect you to be drawing in 5-8kwh of power during the small hours of the morning. That capacity can be planned for.

They can't predict when you want a cuppa.