Another HGV death in London (split from original thread)

[stowie]

I am either in front or behind a HGV...I never ride along side one, and I see this same behaviour being displayed by other car and motorcycle users on the motorways.

I have no idea what motorways you drive on but they clearly aren't mine. In densely moving traffic car drivers will sit next to the HGV if their lane is moving at roughly the same speed. I see car drivers overtake a HGV whilst being overtaken by another car on the outside lane all the time. Sideswipes are a common cause of HGV / car accident on motorways with left hand drive HGVs especially prevalent due to decreased visibility. Those accidents wouldn't happen if the driver hadn't been alongside the HGV at the time (or had an escape route).

I have had several near misses with lorries. None of them were articulated HGVs apart from the one I caused myself by going up the inside. I did that once and it was enough for me to realise that it is a very bad thing to do. The others have been lorries overtaking me and either cutting back in too close or simply turning a corner. Luckily on those occasions I realised what was happening an backed off sharply. In those cases I would much prefer if I, the cyclist, wasn't having to accommodate and mitigate for poor driving. In these cases they happened on multilane roads where taking primary didn't help - the driver used the other lane.

 

[newfhouse]

The way I see it is that inexperienced cyclists shouldn't be stuffing themselves up the side of lorries which are turning left.

No, of course they shouldn't, it's bad manners. Should they suffer death or injury as a consequence of being impolite?

A 44 tonne lorry carries in the region of about 30 tonnes of freight. A 7.5 tonne truck carries about 4 tonnes. Would you be happy to substitute 1 big lorry for 7 trucks to do the same job ?
When we talk about how dangerous the congested the roads are, then the alternatives need to be considered.

Are you sure you've covered all of the available options here?

 

[PK99]

So we are still going with the idea that all cyclists killed by left turning lorries put themselves there? No instances where the lorry driver pulled up alongside the cyclist and then turned on them?

Cycle craft advises stopping at the head of a queue at lights in the centre of the lane. "... do not allow any other vehicle to share the same lane to the side of you..."

I frequently (ie multiple times every time i ride in London) see cyclists stopping hard left against the kerb and often holding on to the railings.

 

[theclaud]

Cycle craft advises stopping at the head of a queue at lights in the centre of the lane. "... do not allow any other vehicle to share the same lane to the side of you..."

I frequently (ie multiple times every time i ride in London) see cyclists stopping hard left against the kerb and often holding on to the railings.

And how does that oblige an HGV to pull alongside?

 

[l33rec]

I have a trailer that is occasionally 100ft long and 100 ton it is a rear steer trailer so the rear end can kick the opposite way to the way i turn i have cyclist s holding on to it all the time in central London .

Linford you coverthe points very well on cheap and easy soloution is side mounted cctv with a screen in the cab where the rear view mirror would be i have one in all my trucks it shows both sides and and cost is minimal (£150) even cheaper on e bay from china

 

[Mugshot]

People die because they ride up the side of left turning HGVs
Enough of them have this warning on them in London yet people still die because they think they know better, or are just ignorant to the risks.
If you don't do it yourself, it is probably because you appreciate it is a very dangerous thing to do.

This isn't about blame, it is about self preservation and prevention which all cyclists (and motorcyclists) as vulnerable road users should have burned into their consciousness when on 2 wheels.

The issue with this particular warning seems to be that even if you can see their mirrors they can't necessarily see you, so it's a bit of a naughty sign really.

 

[PK99]

Ah - the HGV apologist makes an appearance.

Knowing what the the infractions are is an irrelevance - the core fact is that there were infractions in half of the vehicles checked.

Not an irrelevance at all. 100% of by bikes are illegal at night as i do not have pedal reflectors

 

[DWiggy]

It should be law when driving a HGV in London to either have a drivers mate to act as a visual aid or have side mounted cameras and a warning system (Possibly similar to reverse sensors) or even better have construction vehicles restricted to out of hours access to London/city's.
There is obviously a major problem at the moment and something really needs to be done quick before more people get hurt, even if its not the drivers fault the excuse of "I couldn't see them" is unacceptable in this day and age!

 

[theclaud]

Your bikes aren't illegal. Your use of them on public roads at night may mean you're committing an offence. There's a difference.

Also I'm guessing that they don't tend to kill and maim people if he makes a small error or has been riding them for too long.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

So we are still going with the idea that all cyclists killed by left turning lorries put themselves there? No instances where the lorry driver pulled up alongside the cyclist and then turned on them?

That needed to be said. It's funny how easily it gets left out of the discussions. My own most endangered moments on a bike have come when exactly that situation has been forced on me.

 

[Linford]

No, of course they shouldn't, it's bad manners. Should they suffer death or injury as a consequence of being impolite?


Are you sure you've covered all of the available options here?

You think putting yourself into the blind spot of a left turning lorry is 'impolite'....Jeez, where did you learn road craft ?....by the sounds of things you never have...and consider it is your god given right to put yourself into any gap you can get through and that then every one else on the road has a duty to protect you against your own ineptitude.

If you want to play in the traffic with the big boys, then you need to know the rules and best practice (Roadcraft) which are there to keep you alive. If you want to ignore this, then you become your own worst enemy !

The advice I was given when I learned to ride a motorcycle 30+ years ago was treat everyone else on the road as if they have not seen you, ride accordingly, and you might just avoid connecting with them

 

[newfhouse]

You think putting yourself into the blind spot of a left turning lorry is 'impolite'....Jeez, where did you learn road craft ?....by the sounds of things you never have...and consider it is your god given right to put yourself into any gap you can get through and that then every one else on the road has a duty to protect you against your own ineptitude.

No, I've already said elsewhere in this thread that I don't do this, and I would advise anyone against doing so. But people make mistakes, some are inexperienced, some think they can safely follow painted road markings, some get trapped, some don't give a damn. They may be in harm's way, but consider where the harm comes from.

If you want to play in the traffic with the big boys, then you need to know the rules and best practice (Roadcraft) which are there to keep you alive. If you want to ignore this, then you become your own worst enemy !

Or, if you're driving a vehicle unsuitable for the conditions, someone else's worst enemy.

The advice I was given when I learned to ride a motorcycle 30+ years ago was treat everyone else on the road as if they have not seen you, ride accordingly, and you might just avoid connecting with them

Broadly sensible advice, but it applies to all road users equally.

 

[Linford]

No, I've already said elsewhere in this thread that I don't do this, and I would advise anyone against doing so. But people make mistakes, some are inexperienced, some think they can safely follow painted road markings, some get trapped, some don't give a damn. They may be in harm's way, but consider where the harm comes from.
.

Sorry, but your argument could also be applied to people swimming in the sea without any ability or caution. the risk is always there because The sea is a dangerous place, but it is the persons choice to put themselves in to that environment.

What tells you personally that stuffing yourself up the side of a lorry turning left is so dangerous that you avoid doing this ?

 

[davefb]

you wouldn't have a swimming beach, where ferries were going back and forth..

this isn't a general issue of mixing traffic, there appears to be a major problem with more construction traffic in the mix that you'd normally expect in an urban environment.. they need to DO SOMETHING, but the something is either ban tippers, clamp down on driving regs for the trucks ( 20 trucks stopped by the police in london whilst moaning against cyclists not wearing hi-vis, 60 offences)..
something better than slap some blue paint down

 

[Linford]

I have no idea what motorways you drive on but they clearly aren't mine. In densely moving traffic car drivers will sit next to the HGV if their lane is moving at roughly the same speed. I see car drivers overtake a HGV whilst being overtaken by another car on the outside lane all the time. Sideswipes are a common cause of HGV / car accident on motorways with left hand drive HGVs especially prevalent due to decreased visibility. Those accidents wouldn't happen if the driver hadn't been alongside the HGV at the time (or had an escape route).

I have had several near misses with lorries. None of them were articulated HGVs apart from the one I caused myself by going up the inside. I did that once and it was enough for me to realise that it is a very bad thing to do. The others have been lorries overtaking me and either cutting back in too close or simply turning a corner. Luckily on those occasions I realised what was happening an backed off sharply. In those cases I would much prefer if I, the cyclist, wasn't having to accommodate and mitigate for poor driving. In these cases they happened on multilane roads where taking primary didn't help - the driver used the other lane.

And so you hang back if you are in moving traffic, and you are looking to sit in the middle lane, and wat for the gap to grow so you can position yourself in front. The only time I'd draw level on the motorway and sit there is when the traffic is stationary. How closr are you tailgating the car in front if you feel you must ride alongside a moving HGV ?