Another HGV death in London (split from original thread)

[l33rec]

Its all to easy to blame the hgv driver as the "professional" however they are often a secondary victim albeit more often mentally than physically, From the position of the vehicle it would appear to be a turning left incident in which the cyclist has either entered the blindspot of the hgv or the hgv has overtaken and then turned across the path of the cyclist either way its a tradgedy and i wish all the best for all parties involved.


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDvJoG5arYI


Education as always is key on ALL sides

 

[l33rec]

Side mounted cctv cameras as fitted to those on the cross rail project would almost certainly save lives and at a minimal cost of approx 150 quid are viable to ALL professional hauliers

 

[newfhouse]

Its all to easy to blame the hgv driver as the "professional" however they are often a secondary victim albeit more often mentally than physically, From the position of the vehicle it would appear to be a turning left incident in which the cyclist has either entered the blindspot of the hgv or the hgv has overtaken and then turned across the path of the cyclist either way its a tradgedy and i wish all the best for all parties involved.


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDvJoG5arYI


Education as always is key on ALL sides

Why is a vehicle with such dangerous blind spots allowed on shared roads? Solutions exist.

 

[Linford]

Why is a vehicle with such dangerous blind spots allowed on shared roads? Solutions exist.

Because they wouldn't be able to go around corners without the articulation....How many times to you see a car driver or experienced motorcyclist putting themselves into this position next to a HGV ?

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

Because they wouldn't be able to go around corners without the articulation....How many times to you see a car driver or experienced motorcyclist putting themselves into this position next to a HGV ?

Though the articulation I gather you're talking about would work better - far, far better - if the unarticulated bulk of the tractor didn't have such a blind ''drag sweep'' at the unarticulated end. If a worm can go round corners and keep its tail in line, why are trucks so much worse than ancient invertebrates? Well apart from the fact that they're thousands of times lighter....

 

[newfhouse]

Because they wouldn't be able to go around corners without the articulation....How many times to you see a car driver or experienced motorcyclist putting themselves into this position next to a HGV ?

You're missing the point. I avoid the blind spots, perhaps you do too, but not everyone does. I presume you're not suggesting that inexperienced cyclists deserve to be squashed? It's poor form to pass on the left but if visibility was better then undertaking cyclists would at worst be an annoyance rather than dead or injured.

 

[Linford]

Though the articulation I gather you're talking about would work better - far, far better - if the unarticulated bulk of the tractor didn't have such a blind ''drag sweep'' at the unarticulated end. If a worm can go round corners and keep its tail in line, why are trucks so much worse than ancient invertebrates? Well apart from the fact that they're thousands of times lighter....

Because a worm effectively has many segments of articulation. The bigger the overhang behind the trailers axles, the more of the road it takes when it does go around corners.

 

[slowmotion]

Because a worm effectively has many segments of articulation. The bigger the overhang behind the trailers axles, the more of the road it takes when it does go around corners.

Wormly rear steer?

 

[stowie]

Because they wouldn't be able to go around corners without the articulation....How many times to you see a car driver or experienced motorcyclist putting themselves into this position next to a HGV ?

I see cars going up the inside of HGVs quite often. Normally a lack of space will prevent it, but I have seen more cases than could be explained by a one off. I have a video somewhere of a Saab driver using a bus lane (illegally) to undertake a left turning lorry. Of course cars are bigger and more likely to be seen than bikes and a collision is less likely to be fatal

It is interesting to note the difference in tone between cyclists putting themselves in blind spots and drivers. A common HGV / car accident involving blind spots is where a car driver on a multilane road sits alongside the HGV (normally the cab) with no escape route. I went on a drive and survive course where they repeated the mantra - three into two doesn't go - ie. if you get alongside a HGV with something alongside you in the third lane then you will get squashed if the HGV moves out. How many drivers hang back on busy motorways to avoid this potential situation? How many even think about it? And when a car gets sideswiped I have rarely heard of calls to educate drivers to avoid HGV blindspots or questioning the car driver behaviour at all.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

Because a worm effectively has many segments of articulation. The bigger the overhang behind the trailers axles, the more of the road it takes when it does go around corners.

I was being a bit naughty. I know that perfectly well. I'm not sure why a truck with a human being in control of it has to be so stupid compared to worms though. It's not the articulation that's the problem, it's the lack of articulation that contributes so crushingly to the problem. At least trains have bogies and there's enough traction to keep massive loaded trucks in line. Except they'd have to go back to the design board. Those old Citroëns with the headlights that followed the steering of the car, you could do that to the mirrors, working solely from the degree of articulation between tractor and trailer, reducing blind spots enormously. The angle and degree of articulation connected to the mirrors to reduce the extent of the blind spot. Rear wheel steering gauged to reduce drastically the drag sweep.

All doable. All undone.

 

[Linford]

You're missing the point. I avoid the blind spots, perhaps you do too, but not everyone does. I presume you're not suggesting that inexperienced cyclists deserve to be squashed? It's poor form to pass on the left but if visibility was better then undertaking cyclists would at worst be an annoyance rather than dead or injured.

The way I see it is that inexperienced cyclists shouldn't be stuffing themselves up the side of lorries which are turning left. If they are looking to do this dangerous move, they really have no place on the roads until these essential skills are acquired.
A 44 tonne lorry carries in the region of about 30 tonnes of freight. A 7.5 tonne truck carries about 4 tonnes. Would you be happy to substitute 1 big lorry for 7 trucks to do the same job ?
When we talk about how dangerous the congested the roads are, then the alternatives need to be considered.

 

[Linford]

I see cars going up the inside of HGVs quite often. Normally a lack of space will prevent it, but I have seen more cases than could be explained by a one off. I have a video somewhere of a Saab driver using a bus lane (illegally) to undertake a left turning lorry. Of course cars are bigger and more likely to be seen than bikes and a collision is less likely to be fatal

It is interesting to note the difference in tone between cyclists putting themselves in blind spots and drivers. A common HGV / car accident involving blind spots is where a car driver on a multilane road sits alongside the HGV (normally the cab) with no escape route. I went on a drive and survive course where they repeated the mantra - three into two doesn't go - ie. if you get alongside a HGV with something alongside you in the third lane then you will get squashed if the HGV moves out. How many drivers hang back on busy motorways to avoid this potential situation? How many even think about it? And when a car gets sideswiped I have rarely heard of calls to educate drivers to avoid HGV blindspots or questioning the car driver behaviour at all.

I am either in front or behind a HGV...I never ride along side one, and I see this same behaviour being displayed by other car and motorcycle users on the motorways.

 

[Linford]

I was being a bit naughty. I know that perfectly well. I'm not sure why a truck with a human being in control of it has to be so stupid compared to worms though. It's not the articulation that's the problem, it's the lack of articulation that contributes so crushingly to the problem. At least trains have bogies and there's enough traction to keep massive loaded trucks in line. Except they'd have to go back to the design board. Those old Citroëns with the headlights that followed the steering of the car, you could do that to the mirrors, working solely from the degree of articulation between tractor and trailer, reducing blind spots enormously. The angle and degree of articulation connected to the mirrors to reduce the extent of the blind spot. Rear wheel steering gauged to reduce drastically the drag sweep.

All doable. All undone.

There are a lot of rear wheel steering lorries on the roads now

The alternative solution as you suggest might be this ?

 

[Linford]

People die because they ride up the side of left turning HGVs
Enough of them have this warning on them in London yet people still die because they think they know better, or are just ignorant to the risks.
If you don't do it yourself, it is probably because you appreciate it is a very dangerous thing to do.

This isn't about blame, it is about self preservation and prevention which all cyclists (and motorcyclists) as vulnerable road users should have burned into their consciousness when on 2 wheels.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

There are a lot of rear wheel steering lorries on the roads now

The alternative solution as you suggest might be this ?

Scale. That's all. Our alternative is to have all the trailers in one piece.

Oh, that's not all. Why don't all those rocks it's carrying fall off? They look a bit perilous to me.