Fella, we are discussing the topic, I was just asking @User who was assuming that assertiveness is the key. I have also posed a number of IDEAS, what are your thoughts on them
I see, I thought you were suggesting that this was my assumption. I'm not convinced that this is a general assumption though. we've had suggestions of spatial awareness, programming genetics and yes one or two suggesting assertiveness but there doesn't yet seem to be a general opinion. Perhaps this is the point, perhaps it isn't as simple as a single solution perhaps many contributing factors influence this outcome.
Fair enough, so what thoughts do you have on the issue, why do you think this happens very specifically in London
Just a convenient hanger for a few random thoughts - nothing particular about your post.
) ....
If we need research - it's into the mindset of driving. If we need education - it's for drivers. If we need action - it's on piss-poor drivers.
Just a convenient hanger for a few random thoughts - nothing particular about your post.
I wonder if the fact that "so many females" are being killed/seriously injured may be a red herring? I can think of at least two groups, defined by being male and of a certain age, where there is an identifiable population of .... I'll use the phrase "less assertive riders". Aye - and this isn't London-based, either.
First - older men. In their 50s and 60s. They've been pootling back and forwards to work on their bikes for 30-40 years. Slowly. It's been their cheap transport, convenient for shifts which start or finish when the buses are stopped, and keeps their beer-gut under control. And they ride doggedly and determinedly ... along the double yellow lines. As they learned 40 years ago.
But please - no dismissive terms like "gutter-huggers". So many great old guys, with stories to tell. There's a goodly number around S Leeds, especially Dewsbury Road, going to/from the industrial parks.
And of this I am sure, they figure very highly in KSI figures. Hard statistical evidence? I have none. It's an impression gained from reading newspaper accounts, and police requests for witnesses to hit-and-run accidents.
Second group - an identifiable group among secondary school-age boys.
I commute to schools, and inevitably get to know the other cycle-rack users (... and repair their punctures, adjust their gears, and admonish them for their shocking brakes!). A group easy to miss among the testosterone-fuelled teenage jackasses pulling wheelies along the pavement, or riding down dual carriageway York Road, in the outside lane, at night, without lights ... against the traffic (yup! I saw you, Dwayne
.... the quiet, polite, studious (bless 'em - that's often NOT a reflection of academic ability). Almost certainly taught "rules of the road" (ahem!) by a grandfather; aye, and keen to do right by their grandpa. With that same dogged determination to ride hard to the left, in the gutter.
And it infuriates me beyond all reason when I see how they get treated by some drivers on the road. "Bullying"? Doesn't do justice to the farking callous and deliberate intimidation I've seen some of these guys experience. [Fortunately, I have no inkling of how they feature in KSI rates. Nor do I want one - I teach some of the wee guys.]
As a general comment on a theme in many of the previous posts - basically, "mtfu and be assertive"? Sorry - that's victim blaming.
Eeeh - that were a ramble!
I couldn't agree more that assertive riding is good advice. I don't give a monkey's .... for the drivers I've upset riding Dewsbury Road into central Leeds
.
No cycle hire in Manchester? Did I dream hiring a Brompton from Piccadilly station then?
Already posted:
Although we should note that "For example, across the UK in 2015 there were 100 cyclist deaths, 21 were woman. Pretty close to proportional to the number of riders, I'd guess" was an incorrect guess - from the relative numbers of riders, we would expect 33 women, so it's actually disproportionate in the opposite way to London, as @User correctly noted.
There's a statistician already here but it feels like no-one's listening or looking for data anyway :P
I'm pretty sure this is not a temporary statistical blip or matter of perception because it's been reported for years, but feel free to load in the previous years from https://data.gov.uk/dataset/road-accidents-safety-data and rerun the queries I used earlier to calculate the male/female fatality splits for different years. It would be good to find more detail on ridership by gender, too.
"select count(*) from Casualties where Casualty_Type = 1 and Casualty_Severity < 3 and Age_of_Casualty > 49 and Age_of_Casualty < 70 and Sex_of_Casualty = 1" finds 675 male cyclists in their 50s or 60s KSId.
So what's its relevance here, then?
I'm listening and appreciating
... and I enjoy (other people looking for/finding/interpreting) data.
, and way beyond the figures you have access to?
Probably. I've been told it's possible to get hold of the "contributing factors" data in exchange for signing some agreements but I've not done so and anyway that's only the police report rather than something tested in court, plus once you start distinguishing the 9 London cyclist deaths a year still further, then that's probably doing case studies rather than statistics.To be fair, I think (hope?) I was suggesting that a more "fine-grained" analysis might show up different/interesting(/alarming?) results? An analysis WAY beyond my bog-basic and meagre statistical "ability"
Inagree with some of this, in particular your comment about well taught students being bullied, which plays to my thinking on rule breaking.Just a convenient hanger for a few random thoughts - nothing particular about your post.
I wonder if the fact that "so many females" are being killed/seriously injured may be a red herring? I can think of at least two groups, defined by being male and of a certain age, where there is an identifiable population of .... I'll use the phrase "less assertive riders". Aye - and this isn't London-based, either.
First - older men. In their 50s and 60s. They've been pootling back and forwards to work on their bikes for 30-40 years. Slowly. It's been their cheap transport, convenient for shifts which start or finish when the buses are stopped, and keeps their beer-gut under control. And they ride doggedly and determinedly ... along the double yellow lines. As they learned 40 years ago.
But please - no dismissive terms like "gutter-huggers". So many great old guys, with stories to tell. There's a goodly number around S Leeds, especially Dewsbury Road, going to/from the industrial parks.
And of this I am sure, they figure very highly in KSI figures. Hard statistical evidence? I have none. It's an impression gained from reading newspaper accounts, and police requests for witnesses to hit-and-run accidents.
Second group - an identifiable group among secondary school-age boys.
I commute to schools, and inevitably get to know the other cycle-rack users (... and repair their punctures, adjust their gears, and admonish them for their shocking brakes!). A group easy to miss among the testosterone-fuelled teenage jackasses pulling wheelies along the pavement, or riding down dual carriageway York Road, in the outside lane, at night, without lights ... against the traffic (yup! I saw you, Dwayne
.... the quiet, polite, studious (bless 'em - that's often NOT a reflection of academic ability). Almost certainly taught "rules of the road" (ahem!) by a grandfather; aye, and keen to do right by their grandpa. With that same dogged determination to ride hard to the left, in the gutter.
And it infuriates me beyond all reason when I see how they get treated by some drivers on the road. "Bullying"? Doesn't do justice to the farking callous and deliberate intimidation I've seen some of these guys experience. [Fortunately, I have no inkling of how they feature in KSI rates. Nor do I want one - I teach some of the wee guys.]
As a general comment on a theme in many of the previous posts - basically, "mtfu and be assertive"? Sorry - that's victim blaming.
Eeeh - that were a ramble!
