2 more women die in London

[jonny jeez]

Debatable, but I won't here.


how well the motoring lobby have convinced cyclists of this myth! I feel it's not so much that people overtake on the left but that motorists appear to act as if they can overtake through junctions (contrary to the highway code) with impunity. Maybe motorists think women are more likely to be bullied into stopping while they overtake dodgily or maybe that's enabled because women are more likely to follow mistaken paint which:


But I don't know the research evidence on how many men and women exit the cycle lanes at junctions like that on CS2.

Its not about overtaking, its about positioning. Cyclepaths place riders on the left (even if there is an ASZ) of large vehicles at junctions. They show a clear path to follow that puts the rider at huge risk.

Even the ASZ is often to short to allow the rider to be seen, even if they are right in front of a tall lorry.

I would also like to see some evidence in the last point.

 

[mjr]

Its not about overtaking, its about positioning. Cyclepaths place riders on the left (even if there is an ASZ) of large vehicles at junctions. They show a clear path to follow that puts the rider at huge risk.

I broadly agree with that and I think the recent moves away from simple ASZs to cycle-specific signals and phases are probably a good thing.

Even the ASZ is often to short to allow the rider to be seen, even if they are right in front of a tall lorry.

Yes! This is made even worse by the UK's over-use of far-side secondary/repeater signals which is another way that people basically aren't punished for crossing the stop line and all too often obstructing the pedestrian crossing.

 

[jefmcg]

I'm sure you there are 1.5km diameter circles in the UK where every cyclist death was male - or black - or over 60 - or under 15.

Yes easily to male, because most cyclists are male, and across the country 80% fatalities are men. But I bet you can't draw a circle of any size with 14 deaths inside that are all of a minority in that areas cycling community. And if you can, that is going to indicate an underlying problem.

And if 15 cycling children had been killed in 1.5km radius, it would be a national scandal.

 

[benb]

[QUOTE 4673175, member: 9609"]Coming round the roundabout was an articulated lorry, the driver just stopped, he watched and waited until he could see the children were beyond the rear of his trailer before moving off. Now that is gold standard driving, he seen a potential disaster unfolding and made sure it could not happen. We need more drivers like this.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and driving like this ought to be completely normal and unremarkable. It's illuminating that we are in the position of pouring praise on a driver for simply driving to the standard that is required of them.

 

[jefmcg]

You may not like the results of the research, but it was not sexist.

What research? If you had quoted some research, then I may have had a different opinion, but all you did was vaguely mention a "suggestion" and then lead to the conclusion that "A male cyclist is genetically better equipped" for cycling. That is sexist.

And ... it's not backed up by data. I said that across the country 80% of fatalities are male, so that seems to disprove your idea entirely.

Which presumably you didn't read, because you continued to say

Which leaves gender differences as a likely explanation.

As you seem to think that only 50% of cyclists are men, then we have the opposite problem - understanding why men are four times more likely to die than women.

(that's not true, I'd say there are easily 3 times the number of men cycling than women so nationally there is no anomaly)

 

[subaqua]

Yes easily to male, because most cyclists are male, and across the country 80% fatalities are men. But I bet you can't draw a circle of any size with 14 deaths inside that are all of a minority in that areas cycling community. And if you can, that is going to indicate an underlying problem.

And if 15 cycling children had been killed in 1.5km radius, it would be a national scandal.

nah it wouldn't


because they are only cyclists , and treated as vermin because they are on bikes , sadly. Even the Met Pol and City Pol treat us as vermin. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15216...don-cyclist-is-killed-by-a-lorry-at-junction/ DO NOT CLICK IF YOU ARE A SENSITIVE SOUL.

it is going to take a massive step change , similar to the Netherlands .

 

[jefmcg]

What's sad is that we are all guessing the reasons. If 20% of cyclists are suffering most of the fatalities, then there could be a real opportunity for an easy win here. If someone could study these incidents and actually come to an informed conclusion about why they are happening, then maybe some concrete action could be taken that would have an effect.

If we could reduce the fatalities amongst women cyclists in London to the same levels as men, the death toll in the city would plummet. I'd even accept some well informed mansplaining from the police if I knew it was backed up with data.

I'll write to the Mayor. Let's see if he even replies.

 

[fossyant]

What's sad is that we are all guessing the reasons. If 20% of cyclists are suffering most of the fatalities, then there could be a real opportunity for an easy win here. If someone could study these incidents and actually come to an informed conclusion about why they are happening, then maybe some concrete action could be taken that would have an effect.

If we could reduce the fatalities amongst women cyclists in London to the same levels as men, the death toll in the city would plummet. I'd even accept some well informed mansplaining from the police if I knew it was backed up with data.

I'll write to the Mayor. Let's see if he even replies.

Something needs doing as these deaths are way out of proportion.

There is a reason behind it and that reason might make some unpleasant reading. Questions need to be asked about the driver and cyclists experience to find out what's leading to this.

 

[jefmcg]

I've just be reading a few new reports, and there is something that stands out - China, Italy, Germany, Hungary. Many of them are from overseas. That's not surprising, especially in central London, I probably know more immigrants than native Londoners. But there would certainly be less immigrants in most of the UK.

I wonder if it that's a clue?

 

[fossyant]

What about familiarity with particular junctions ? There are roads and junctions I won't use because the chances of being hit are far higher than other routes. E.g Elephant and Castle I believe isn't great.

I won't use Oxford Road in Manchester. Too many pedestrians, Europe's busiest bus route and an abundance of little side streets. All add up to an unpleasant experience.

 

[jefmcg]

• it is four years old

This is particularly notable. I confess I misread it and conflated the year and the number of deaths so thought the data was from 2001-2014, rather than 2012.

I'll do some further research and collate some real data myself.

What we can say, using the figures that are available, is that nationally men are proportionally more likely to be killed whilst cycling than women - not the other way round.

Do you think that is true? I would guess one in four or five cyclists were women. You think it's more, nation wide?

I download the data of all road casualties from 2015 from the DfT, which is where the 79/21 figure comes from. (Aside: I should appear on that list, as a list of all each road incidents with an injury from that year - but the police who attended didn't realise that cycle only accidents count, and didn't record it)

 

[mjr]

And as the data source cannot be interrogated there is no real ability to judge the accuracy of the data mapping or the quality of the interpretation of the results.

It's probably RRCGB so it could be interrogated if you wanted but it would take some work.

I have the 2015 public data loaded into a database already so "select Sex_of_Casualty, count(*) from Casualties where Casualty_Type = 1 and Accident_Index in (select Accident_Index from Accidents where Police_Force in (1,48) ) and Casualty_Severity = 1 group by Sex_of_Casualty;" tells me that 6 women cyclists and 3 men cyclists died in the Metropolitan Police and City of London Police areas in that year.

Meanwhile, http://content.tfl.gov.uk/travel-in-london-report-8.pdf Figure 11.1 suggests that there are more cycling trips by men than women, so 3:6 seems disproportionate. There may be more detailed data lurking somewhere in TfL, but that seems sufficient for this conclusion.

And because it's cheap to omit the Police_Force clause: nationally, the "Local Area Walking and Cycling Statistics: England" report suggests twice as many men cycle as women, while 79 male cyclists were killed compared to 21 women ones... so it's disproportionate in the other way, as @User suggests... but I do caution that it's something like 30 times the deaths in 80 times the area of London so it's going from a low rate to even lower.

(Edited to put more bits into past tense)

 

[jefmcg]

That's not what I said. What is said was that nationally men are proportionally more likely to be killed whilst cycling than women.

You and I have a different understanding of "whilst" in this sentence.

 

[Tin Pot]

am staggered by this comment.

Glad to have given you a different angle to the pervasive "they should be more assertive" victim blaming, which ironically got much worse after I posted.

May sound very right on to you,

No, but apparently it does to you.

and maybe the circles you mix in,

Which circles are these? I guess you mean white male middle aged elite.

but hardly going to help in finding a solution to this problem is it?

Finding the correct approach to a problem will indeed find the best solution.

Are you saying all the bad drivers are men?

Another strawman.

Are you seriously suggesting that they are somehow targetting a particular gender?

Not I, but this thread is.

The weight of your assumptions about me and my thought process is staggering. I'd suggest you look at what I have put forward, rather than who I am.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

You and I have a different understanding of "whilst" in this sentence.

While and whilst are used pretty much interchangeably. I prefer using while to mean at the same time and whilst to indicate an contrasting situation but that's just a personal choice.