Zwift Chat

[bridgy]

I did the same London loop course on the bkool tonight - feel free to take a look and analyse, but please be nice to each other - I don't want to be the catalyst for a fight!

I went a bit faster on the bkool - 54 seconds quicker than on the neo. However, the watts show as MUCH higher on the bkool - 4.01 w/kg today vs 3.67 w/kg on the neo. The gain in watts seems higher than the relatively small gain in speed would suggest. For example, that time yesterday wouldn't have made any difference to my finishing position of 5th in cat B, and today's time would have put me in 8th place in cat B if I hadn't got DQ'd for exceeding the w/kg limit. The 7th placed cat B rider has the same weight as me and went 46 seconds quicker but showed just 3.64 w/kg which is much more similar to my neo result.

So for me at least I would say the bkool in zwift over-states the watts a lot, and the speed a little.

This is actually a bit annoying because I'm getting penalised for my reported w/kg and so ought to ride in cat A in zwift on the bkool, even though my actual time isn't nearly as quick as the overstated watts would suggest. Oh well! Cat B is clearly where my speed puts me so I might just stick at that to enjoy the races and ignore the fact I keep getting DQ'd!

One example of bkool overstating watts for no speed benefit I noticed was freewheeling downhill - even though you're not pedalling and zwift has taken over the speed to reclect the descent, the bkool still reports watts right up until the rear wheel stops spinning as it has no PM so will assume if the wheel is spinning you're pushing it along.

Only my experience - others may well find things behave differently for them of course

Now I probably need to rest my legs for a couple of days!

 

[CXRAndy]

Thanks Paul, your willingness to repeat rides is invaluable to assess the Pro against others on Zwift

Paul London loop on a Bkool Pro..........................Tacx Neo

• Distance 19.2mi............................................""
• Moving Time 50.15...................................... 53.40
• Elevation 1,362ft........................................... ""
  
• Weighted Avg Power 321W......................... 295W
  Total Work 922kJ......................................... 882kj

Avg Speed 23.0mi/h 47.0mi/h............................... 21.9mi/h 50.8mi/h
Heart Rate 163bpm 175bpm................................. 172bpm 185bpm
Cadence 87 127.................................................... 85 134
Power 306W 712W............................................... 274W 633W
Calories 1,028...................................................... 984
Elapsed Time 50:15............................................. 53.40
W/Kg 4.01............................................................ 3.67

 

[<Tommy>]

I did the same London loop course on the bkool tonight - feel free to take a look and analyse, but please be nice to each other - I don't want to be the catalyst for a fight!

I went a bit faster on the bkool - 54 seconds quicker than on the neo. However, the watts show as MUCH higher on the bkool - 4.01 w/kg today vs 3.67 w/kg on the neo. The gain in watts seems higher than the relatively small gain in speed would suggest. For example, that time yesterday wouldn't have made any difference to my finishing position of 5th in cat B, and today's time would have put me in 8th place in cat B if I hadn't got DQ'd for exceeding the w/kg limit. The 7th placed cat B rider has the same weight as me and went 46 seconds quicker but showed just 3.64 w/kg which is much more similar to my neo result.

So for me at least I would say the bkool in zwift over-states the watts a lot, and the speed a little.

This is actually a bit annoying because I'm getting penalised for my reported w/kg and so ought to ride in cat A in zwift on the bkool, even though my actual time isn't nearly as quick as the overstated watts would suggest. Oh well! Cat B is clearly where my speed puts me so I might just stick at that to enjoy the races and ignore the fact I keep getting DQ'd!

One example of bkool overstating watts for no speed benefit I noticed was freewheeling downhill - even though you're not pedalling and zwift has taken over the speed to reclect the descent, the bkool still reports watts right up until the rear wheel stops spinning as it has no PM so will assume if the wheel is spinning you're pushing it along.

Only my experience - others may well find things behave differently for them of course

Now I probably need to rest my legs for a couple of days!

Excellent work mate. After say 100 more attempts on each turbo I reckon we'll be able to create a nice graph to show all the findings

 

[bobinski]

I did the same London loop course on the bkool tonight - feel free to take a look and analyse, but please be nice to each other - I don't want to be the catalyst for a fight!

I went a bit faster on the bkool - 54 seconds quicker than on the neo. However, the watts show as MUCH higher on the bkool - 4.01 w/kg today vs 3.67 w/kg on the neo. The gain in watts seems higher than the relatively small gain in speed would suggest. For example, that time yesterday wouldn't have made any difference to my finishing position of 5th in cat B, and today's time would have put me in 8th place in cat B if I hadn't got DQ'd for exceeding the w/kg limit. The 7th placed cat B rider has the same weight as me and went 46 seconds quicker but showed just 3.64 w/kg which is much more similar to my neo result.

So for me at least I would say the bkool in zwift over-states the watts a lot, and the speed a little.

This is actually a bit annoying because I'm getting penalised for my reported w/kg and so ought to ride in cat A in zwift on the bkool, even though my actual time isn't nearly as quick as the overstated watts would suggest. Oh well! Cat B is clearly where my speed puts me so I might just stick at that to enjoy the races and ignore the fact I keep getting DQ'd!

One example of bkool overstating watts for no speed benefit I noticed was freewheeling downhill - even though you're not pedalling and zwift has taken over the speed to reclect the descent, the bkool still reports watts right up until the rear wheel stops spinning as it has no PM so will assume if the wheel is spinning you're pushing it along.

Only my experience - others may well find things behave differently for them of course

Now I probably need to rest my legs for a couple of days!

The numbers are very interesting! Irrespective of turbo variance. It’s probably really difficult to assess but do you know whether drafting was about the same or different in the 2 rides? I did a social ride last night with Dean and spent a lot of time at the front and had to push a good 50-80w more than the main group to stay ahead. I would then ease and almost coast in the draft with the main group before pushing on again, especially when Dean had a few nibbles.
In my best placed race I spent a lot of time in the draft before trying to drag the group to the lead group and so my watts went up for little improvement in speed, say 2mph, and I got disqualified/told to upgrade.
Anyway, thanks for doing this. Just remember that what doesn’t kill you will only make you stronger

 

[bridgy]

Thanks Paul, your willingness to repeat rides is invaluable to assess the Pro against others on Zwift

Paul London loop on a Bkool Pro..........................Tacx Neo

• Distance 19.2mi............................................""
• Moving Time 50.15...................................... 53.40
• Elevation 1,362ft........................................... ""
  
• Weighted Avg Power 321W......................... 295W
  Total Work 922kJ......................................... 882kj

Avg Speed 23.0mi/h 47.0mi/h............................... 21.9mi/h 50.8mi/h
Heart Rate 163bpm 175bpm................................. 172bpm 185bpm
Cadence 87 127.................................................... 85 134
Power 306W 712W............................................... 274W 633W
Calories 1,028...................................................... 984
Elapsed Time 50:15............................................. 53.40
W/Kg 4.01............................................................ 3.67

Andy, just to say those figures are from Strava, and should be taken with a slight pinch of salt as you'll notice the distance is different - I think the ride on the Neo recorded a couple more minutes of me pootling around slowly at the end so this makes the ride appear to take longer than it did compared to the actual race course on the Bkool, which I must have saved a bit quicker after finishing. It will have affected the average watts and speed a little as well I guess - probably not too much, but worth bearing in mind.

From the Zwift power results which only include the race distance of 18 miles:

NEO:
Time: 49.31
95% power: 3.67w/kg

BKOOL:
Time: 48:37
95% power: 4.01w/kg

So you see what I mean about the power increase being much more over-stated than the actual gain in speed. If my maths are right that's a 9.26% increase in reported power from Neo to Bkool for only a 1.8% increase in speed.

 

[bridgy]

The numbers are very interesting! Irrespective of turbo variance. It’s probably really difficult to assess but do you know whether drafting was about the same or different in the 2 rides? I did a social ride last night with Dean and spent a lot of time at the front and had to push a good 50-80w more than the main group to stay ahead. I would then ease and almost coast in the draft with the main group before pushing on again, especially when Dean had a few nibbles.
In my best placed race I spent a lot of time in the draft before trying to drag the group to the lead group and so my watts went up for little improvement in speed, say 2mph, and I got disqualified/told to upgrade.
Anyway, thanks for doing this. Just remember that what doesn’t kill you will only make you stronger

A bit more drafting on the Neo ride I think Bob.

Post traumatic stress has virtually wiped my memory of last night's race already but I'm pretty sure I was dropped by the front group on the first ascent of Box Hill and was mostly on my own in No Mans Land after that

 

[bridgy]

Excellent work mate. After say 100 more attempts on each turbo I reckon we'll be able to create a nice graph to show all the findings

I resign

 

[<Tommy>]

So errr... anyone got any good ideas for jersey designs?

 

[bridgy]

So errr... anyone got any good ideas for jersey designs?

 

[bobinski]

A bit more drafting on the Neo ride I think Bob.

Post traumatic stress has virtually wiped my memory of last night's race already but I'm pretty sure I was dropped by the front group on the first ascent of Box Hill and was mostly on my own in No Mans Land after that

PTSD

I think we all need to race together to get on top of the numbers....you can drop us and leave us in no mans land, then we can work together to chase you down

 

[bridgy]

PTSD

I think we all need to race together to get on top of the numbers....you can drop us and leave us in no mans land, then we can work together to chase you down

I'm a bit overloaded with data analysing TBH but definitely up for racing together - we can all mentally add on an appropriate amount of finishing time for me after the race etc etc blah blah blah!

Is there a regular day/time/race you guys tend to do together?

 

[kipster]

I'm a bit overloaded with data analysing TBH but definitely up for racing together - we can all mentally add on an appropriate amount of finishing time for me after the race etc etc blah blah blah!

Is there a regular day/time/race you guys tend to do together?

Does anyone know how to set up a closed off race (TEAM CLS CC do them so they are possible)? We could potentially set up cyclechat sessions, the hard part is agreeing the times as I prefer 7pm (Tues and Thurs and that allows me time for recovery before and after the weekend), but most of the races people tend to do are 8pm.

If we could set up our own races would we bother with categories or let it be a bit free for all (like we did in bkool)?

 

[Whorty]

Does anyone know how to set up a closed off race (TEAM CLS CC do them so they are possible)? We could potentially set up cyclechat sessions, the hard part is agreeing the times as I prefer 7pm (Tues and Thurs and that allows me time for recovery before and after the weekend), but most of the races people tend to do are 8pm.

If we could set up our own races would we bother with categories or let it be a bit free for all (like we did in bkool)?

I'd prefer free for all (I think they call them Cat E) or we could do a cat and mouse so some cats go off earlier (there was one set up on Zwift yesterday but I did the WBR instead sp not 100% sure how it works). As for time, 7pm is best for me too. Looks like I may need a head start though as the Pro hasn't got as much of an advantage as first thought so I'll need every bit of help I can get

 

[bridgy]

Does anyone know how to set up a closed off race (TEAM CLS CC do them so they are possible)? We could potentially set up cyclechat sessions, the hard part is agreeing the times as I prefer 7pm (Tues and Thurs and that allows me time for recovery before and after the weekend), but most of the races people tend to do are 8pm.

If we could set up our own races would we bother with categories or let it be a bit free for all (like we did in bkool)?

For the record, 7pm much better for me too - Tues and Thurs usually fine. Sorry no idea how to do pretty much anything on Zwift yet!

 

[Whorty]

A bit more drafting on the Neo ride I think Bob.

Post traumatic stress has virtually wiped my memory of last night's race already but I'm pretty sure I was dropped by the front group on the first ascent of Box Hill and was mostly on my own in No Mans Land after that

Interestingly (or not) I don't feel the drafting in Zwift on the Pro. I see the avatar sit up which suggests he's in a draft, but unlike on BSIM I don't feel the resistance slack on Zwift. I have to push just as hard to say in the group, and if I slack off I quickly drop off the back. What do none Pro users feel? Do you feel anything in a draft like lower resistance so you don't have to push as hard? Marino asked the same recently as he also didn't 'feel' the draft.