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steverob

Guru
Location
Buckinghamshire
The problem seems to be that if you're finishing in the bottom half of any category, you're not going to get many (any?) ranking points. So someone like me who's at the sharp end of category D, as long as I'm taking part in races with other well regarded riders, even if I don't win every time, I'll get more points than someone who's better than me but in the lower half of the C field. Or at least that's what my ranking score on ZP suggests (484 points).
 

Joffey

Big Dosser
Location
Yorkshire
The problem seems to be that if you're finishing in the bottom half of any category, you're not going to get many (any?) ranking points. So someone like me who's at the sharp end of category D, as long as I'm taking part in races with other well regarded riders, even if I don't win every time, I'll get more points than someone who's better than me but in the lower half of the C field. Or at least that's what my ranking score on ZP suggests (484 points).

And mine... 488 points. And I only race Cat D. I have no idea still what 488 points means though :laugh:
 
USAC Points calculation
Note:
A small field adjustment has been applied to the following rules. If there are between 5 and 9 riders we use the top 5 for quality and all riders for average.

A riders ranking going into every race is calculated from the average of their 5 best results in the past 3 months.

Rankings are set between 0 and 600 points. Fewer points means you have a better ranking. So the goal is to earn the fewest points possible.

In general USAC summarizes the ranking system as follows; “to improve ranking, a rider must beat riders who are currently ranked stronger.” This is a true statement but has some nuances, which we will discuss below.

The points system has 3 critical calculations: Race Quality, Points per Place, and Ranking Points.

Race Quality

The Formula for Race Quality is as follows:

Race Quality = (Average of the best 5 riders finishing in the top 10 places) x (0.9)

If you take any race and only look at the top 10, out of those 10 the riders with the top 5 best points are the 5 critical riders that define the Race Quality. For a race to be a high quality race 5 racers with a strong USAC ranking need to be in the race and they need to finish well. It is interesting to note that the 0.9 factor is applied to Race Quality to ensure that at a minimum a race is valued at 540 points, so that even in fields where there are not any racers with USAC ranking points it is possible to obtain a better USAC ranking.

There is an exception to the Race Quality equation. If the average of all of the riders who finish the race is lower than that of the average of the best 5 in the top 10 then the Race Quality is calculated using the total race average points instead of the average of the best 5 in the top 10. This exception applies as long as the field average is higher than that of the lowest points finisher in the Top 10.

Here is an example the Race Quality equation:
RacerPlaceUSAC Points
Racer A1250
Racer B2200
Racer C3400
Racer D4220
Racer E5500
Racer F6350
Racer G7300
Racer H8280
Racer I9540
Racer J10330
Out of the top 10 racers we first need to select the top 5 points scorers. In this case this means Racer A, B, D, G, and H have the best points.


Race Quality = ( (250 + 200 + 220 + 300 + 280) / 5 ) * 0.9 = 225

If for some reason the average of the entire field’s points was lower than 225, but higher than 200 (the best points in the top 10) then the field average would be utilized in the Race Quality equation.

Points Per Place

The Points per Place is an important calculation as it defines the difference in points a rider would receive by finishing one place higher or one place lower. Points per Place is calculated as follows:

Points Per Place = ((Average Ranking of Finishers - Race Quality) * 2) / (Finishers - 1)

If we used the example above and assume that there were only 10 racers in the field the Points per Place would be as follows:

Points Per Place = ((337 - 225) * 2) / (10 - 1) = 24.88

Rank Points

Finally using the results from the Race Quality and Points per Place calculations an individual’s points can be calculated.
Rank Points = Race Quality + [(Riders Place - 1) * Points Per Place]

Continuing with the example above a rider in first place would receive points as follows:

Rank Points = 225 + [(1 - 1) * 24.88] = 225

The points received by all of the racers in the example would be as follows:
RacerPlaceUSAC PointsRace Earned Points
Racer A1250225
Racer B2200249.88
Racer C3400274.76
Racer D4220299.64
Racer E5500324.52
Racer F6350349.4
Racer G7300374.28
Racer H8280399.16
Racer I9540424.04
Racer J10330448.92
Additional Examples


In order to see the impact of the field average ranking and the number of finishers in a race, an additional set of examples are shown below. Race Quality is held constant at 225 which allows for a simpler comparison.

Race AttributesOriginal ExampleExample AExample BExample C
Race Quality225225225225
Average Ranking337337400400
Number of Finishers10502550
Points per Place24.884.5714.587.14
In examples B and C it might look like moving the average ranking from 337 to 400 is only a small move, but this represents that all racers outside of the top 10 would average a ranking of 550. In the WSBA region this is exaggerated, but is likely as many of the WSBA riders have very poor rankings and any unranked racer would be counted as 600 points.


Given these new examples the earned points would look as follows:

RacerPlaceUSAC PointsOriginal Example:Example A:Example B:Example C:
Racer A1250225225225225
Racer B2200249.88229.57239.58232.14
Racer C3400274.76234.14254.16239.28
Racer D4220299.64238.71268.74246.42
Racer E5500324.52243.28283.32253.56
Racer F6350349.4247.85297.9260.7
Racer G7300374.28252.42312.48267.84
Racer H8280399.16256.99327.06274.98
Racer I9540424.04261.56341.64282.12
Racer J10330448.92266.13356.22289.26
Racer Y25550-334.68574.92396.36
Racer AX50550-339.25- 403.5
The additional examples show that field size can have a significant impact on the points earned without changing the top 10 results! In the original example the racer in 10th received 448.92 points while in example A the racer earned 266.13 points; a difference of nearly 200 points!
Phew. I was really confused before reading that. Clear as mud now 😂
 

mjd1988

Guru
USAC Points calculation
Note:
A small field adjustment has been applied to the following rules. If there are between 5 and 9 riders we use the top 5 for quality and all riders for average.

A riders ranking going into every race is calculated from the average of their 5 best results in the past 3 months.

Rankings are set between 0 and 600 points. Fewer points means you have a better ranking. So the goal is to earn the fewest points possible.

In general USAC summarizes the ranking system as follows; “to improve ranking, a rider must beat riders who are currently ranked stronger.” This is a true statement but has some nuances, which we will discuss below.

The points system has 3 critical calculations: Race Quality, Points per Place, and Ranking Points.

Race Quality

The Formula for Race Quality is as follows:

Race Quality = (Average of the best 5 riders finishing in the top 10 places) x (0.9)

If you take any race and only look at the top 10, out of those 10 the riders with the top 5 best points are the 5 critical riders that define the Race Quality. For a race to be a high quality race 5 racers with a strong USAC ranking need to be in the race and they need to finish well. It is interesting to note that the 0.9 factor is applied to Race Quality to ensure that at a minimum a race is valued at 540 points, so that even in fields where there are not any racers with USAC ranking points it is possible to obtain a better USAC ranking.

There is an exception to the Race Quality equation. If the average of all of the riders who finish the race is lower than that of the average of the best 5 in the top 10 then the Race Quality is calculated using the total race average points instead of the average of the best 5 in the top 10. This exception applies as long as the field average is higher than that of the lowest points finisher in the Top 10.

Here is an example the Race Quality equation:
RacerPlaceUSAC Points
Racer A1250
Racer B2200
Racer C3400
Racer D4220
Racer E5500
Racer F6350
Racer G7300
Racer H8280
Racer I9540
Racer J10330
Out of the top 10 racers we first need to select the top 5 points scorers. In this case this means Racer A, B, D, G, and H have the best points.

Race Quality = ( (250 + 200 + 220 + 300 + 280) / 5 ) * 0.9 = 225

If for some reason the average of the entire field’s points was lower than 225, but higher than 200 (the best points in the top 10) then the field average would be utilized in the Race Quality equation.

Points Per Place

The Points per Place is an important calculation as it defines the difference in points a rider would receive by finishing one place higher or one place lower. Points per Place is calculated as follows:

Points Per Place = ((Average Ranking of Finishers - Race Quality) * 2) / (Finishers - 1)

If we used the example above and assume that there were only 10 racers in the field the Points per Place would be as follows:

Points Per Place = ((337 - 225) * 2) / (10 - 1) = 24.88

Rank Points

Finally using the results from the Race Quality and Points per Place calculations an individual’s points can be calculated.
Rank Points = Race Quality + [(Riders Place - 1) * Points Per Place]

Continuing with the example above a rider in first place would receive points as follows:

Rank Points = 225 + [(1 - 1) * 24.88] = 225

The points received by all of the racers in the example would be as follows:
RacerPlaceUSAC PointsRace Earned Points
Racer A1250225
Racer B2200249.88
Racer C3400274.76
Racer D4220299.64
Racer E5500324.52
Racer F6350349.4
Racer G7300374.28
Racer H8280399.16
Racer I9540424.04
Racer J10330448.92
Additional Examples

In order to see the impact of the field average ranking and the number of finishers in a race, an additional set of examples are shown below. Race Quality is held constant at 225 which allows for a simpler comparison.

Race AttributesOriginal ExampleExample AExample BExample C
Race Quality225225225225
Average Ranking337337400400
Number of Finishers10502550
Points per Place24.884.5714.587.14
In examples B and C it might look like moving the average ranking from 337 to 400 is only a small move, but this represents that all racers outside of the top 10 would average a ranking of 550. In the WSBA region this is exaggerated, but is likely as many of the WSBA riders have very poor rankings and any unranked racer would be counted as 600 points.

Given these new examples the earned points would look as follows:

RacerPlaceUSAC PointsOriginal Example:Example A:Example B:Example C:
Racer A1250225225225225
Racer B2200249.88229.57239.58232.14
Racer C3400274.76234.14254.16239.28
Racer D4220299.64238.71268.74246.42
Racer E5500324.52243.28283.32253.56
Racer F6350349.4247.85297.9260.7
Racer G7300374.28252.42312.48267.84
Racer H8280399.16256.99327.06274.98
Racer I9540424.04261.56341.64282.12
Racer J10330448.92266.13356.22289.26
Racer Y25550-334.68574.92396.36
Racer AX50550-339.25- 403.5
The additional examples show that field size can have a significant impact on the points earned without changing the top 10 results! In the original example the racer in 10th received 448.92 points while in example A the racer earned 266.13 points; a difference of nearly 200 points!

Can you expand upon that please?
 
:smile:

I would summarise it as - to improve your score, you have to beat riders with better scores than you.
But now the confusing part. I gained my points in Cat C beating people. Some time. Then got promoted to Cat B. With the same points. I am clearly now a low grade B rider but with good points that carried over. Not a true reflection of my time in B. Or will my points level out over time now I will keep being beat? 🤷‍♂️
 

berty bassett

Legendary Member
Location
I'boro
Saw this, should suit Tommy, Lee and especially Bob :biggrin:

View: https://youtu.be/n_7gkhSjSjY


Looks great fun, if a little scary in places

I have to admire the way he bounces back up
I have to have a few moments to gather my scrambled thoughts together
Bob has 40 winks laying in the grass
Tommy is a bit more vocal I seem to remember 😁
 

Whorty

Gets free watts from the Atom ;)
Location
Wiltshire
:smile:

I would summarise it as - to improve your score, you have to beat riders with better scores than you.
It feels like the cat should somehow have an influence ... I could sit in C and rack up points and feel i'm better ranked than those in B finishing mid table when, in reality, the B riders are much better than me. Seems there is a conflict between the cats and the ranking.
 

JLaw

Veteran
And mine... 488 points. And I only race Cat D. I have no idea still what 488 points means though :laugh:
Upper 400s are *good* in D. There's just not enough strong regular competition to get much lower than the upper 400s and I strongly suspect that as you approach the 400s in D, you're probably right on the cusp of getting upgraded anyway (as I think is the case for you, Steve and myself).

Points are not category specific and if you're just starting in a higher category they can be highly misleading because the points reflect your best race performances over a ~3 month period -- so it's going to be including results from racing in the lower category. After a few months in the upper category, the points should be a more accurate reflection of your positioning within the higher category.

Due to the miracles of modern medicine, I was able to sleep last night and I'm able to walk today, but my foot is still swollen and certainly wouldn't fit in my shoes yet. So no racing today either...
 

JuhaL

Guru
USAC Points calculation
Note:
A small field adjustment has been applied to the following rules. If there are between 5 and 9 riders we use the top 5 for quality and all riders for average.

A riders ranking going into every race is calculated from the average of their 5 best results in the past 3 months.

Rankings are set between 0 and 600 points. Fewer points means you have a better ranking. So the goal is to earn the fewest points possible.

In general USAC summarizes the ranking system as follows; “to improve ranking, a rider must beat riders who are currently ranked stronger.” This is a true statement but has some nuances, which we will discuss below.

The points system has 3 critical calculations: Race Quality, Points per Place, and Ranking Points.

Race Quality

The Formula for Race Quality is as follows:

Race Quality = (Average of the best 5 riders finishing in the top 10 places) x (0.9)

If you take any race and only look at the top 10, out of those 10 the riders with the top 5 best points are the 5 critical riders that define the Race Quality. For a race to be a high quality race 5 racers with a strong USAC ranking need to be in the race and they need to finish well. It is interesting to note that the 0.9 factor is applied to Race Quality to ensure that at a minimum a race is valued at 540 points, so that even in fields where there are not any racers with USAC ranking points it is possible to obtain a better USAC ranking.

There is an exception to the Race Quality equation. If the average of all of the riders who finish the race is lower than that of the average of the best 5 in the top 10 then the Race Quality is calculated using the total race average points instead of the average of the best 5 in the top 10. This exception applies as long as the field average is higher than that of the lowest points finisher in the Top 10.

Here is an example the Race Quality equation:
RacerPlaceUSAC Points
Racer A1250
Racer B2200
Racer C3400
Racer D4220
Racer E5500
Racer F6350
Racer G7300
Racer H8280
Racer I9540
Racer J10330
Out of the top 10 racers we first need to select the top 5 points scorers. In this case this means Racer A, B, D, G, and H have the best points.


Race Quality = ( (250 + 200 + 220 + 300 + 280) / 5 ) * 0.9 = 225

If for some reason the average of the entire field’s points was lower than 225, but higher than 200 (the best points in the top 10) then the field average would be utilized in the Race Quality equation.

Points Per Place

The Points per Place is an important calculation as it defines the difference in points a rider would receive by finishing one place higher or one place lower. Points per Place is calculated as follows:

Points Per Place = ((Average Ranking of Finishers - Race Quality) * 2) / (Finishers - 1)

If we used the example above and assume that there were only 10 racers in the field the Points per Place would be as follows:

Points Per Place = ((337 - 225) * 2) / (10 - 1) = 24.88

Rank Points

Finally using the results from the Race Quality and Points per Place calculations an individual’s points can be calculated.
Rank Points = Race Quality + [(Riders Place - 1) * Points Per Place]

Continuing with the example above a rider in first place would receive points as follows:

Rank Points = 225 + [(1 - 1) * 24.88] = 225

The points received by all of the racers in the example would be as follows:
RacerPlaceUSAC PointsRace Earned Points
Racer A1250225
Racer B2200249.88
Racer C3400274.76
Racer D4220299.64
Racer E5500324.52
Racer F6350349.4
Racer G7300374.28
Racer H8280399.16
Racer I9540424.04
Racer J10330448.92
Additional Examples


In order to see the impact of the field average ranking and the number of finishers in a race, an additional set of examples are shown below. Race Quality is held constant at 225 which allows for a simpler comparison.

Race AttributesOriginal ExampleExample AExample BExample C
Race Quality225225225225
Average Ranking337337400400
Number of Finishers10502550
Points per Place24.884.5714.587.14
In examples B and C it might look like moving the average ranking from 337 to 400 is only a small move, but this represents that all racers outside of the top 10 would average a ranking of 550. In the WSBA region this is exaggerated, but is likely as many of the WSBA riders have very poor rankings and any unranked racer would be counted as 600 points.


Given these new examples the earned points would look as follows:

RacerPlaceUSAC PointsOriginal Example:Example A:Example B:Example C:
Racer A1250225225225225
Racer B2200249.88229.57239.58232.14
Racer C3400274.76234.14254.16239.28
Racer D4220299.64238.71268.74246.42
Racer E5500324.52243.28283.32253.56
Racer F6350349.4247.85297.9260.7
Racer G7300374.28252.42312.48267.84
Racer H8280399.16256.99327.06274.98
Racer I9540424.04261.56341.64282.12
Racer J10330448.92266.13356.22289.26
Racer Y25550-334.68574.92396.36
Racer AX50550-339.25- 403.5
The additional examples show that field size can have a significant impact on the points earned without changing the top 10 results! In the original example the racer in 10th received 448.92 points while in example A the racer earned 266.13 points; a difference of nearly 200 points!
Quickly browse tells me that i can also win the race, even if i am a last one who cross the finish line :wacko:
 
It feels like the cat should somehow have an influence ... I could sit in C and rack up points and feel i'm better ranked than those in B finishing mid table when, in reality, the B riders are much better than me. Seems there is a conflict between the cats and the ranking.
Yes, in an ideal world categories based on power would be replaced with the points system (like in real life).
 

mjd1988

Guru
Have many people here raced in real life just out of interest? I know a few have mentioned it but curious how many.

The points metric on zwift isn't really something I keep an eye on, but it's nice to see it get lower sometimes I guess
 
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