Woman convicted of manslaughter after swearing and gesturing at 77 year old cyclist.

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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
So running. Now imagine the runner running towards you is carrying a long pole and refuses to slow down.
That's what's happening in that clip.
Who's carrying a long pole???

Most runners in that situation would slow down, to make sure they got past the family safely.
:rofl: Runners near you must be better-behaved than near me. There's loads of them here now, preparing for GEAR in May or maybe the marathon in April. Absolutely no farking road sense, most of them: abrupt changes in directions, U-turns, sudden complete stops, ... It's testament to how safe our cycleways are and the skill of local cyclists that the town isn't littered with crash victims yet.

Also we only have his report that he was *actually* slowed down to 6mph and we don't know at which point he actually reached 6mph. I'd submit that that point was quite close to the family based on the footage, if he actually reached it at all.
I find it quite difficult to assess speed from wide-lens bike cameras. I'd suggest that slowing down below 6mph would be unsafe because most people would wobble, and that dismounting would only make the conflict worse because a pushed bike also requires more width. Maybe he should have stopped, but with hindsight, the parent's reaction means that he might have been attacked if he'd stopped within reach.

After passing, it's not so good: he was totally wrong to go back to make the confrontation worse, even if the walker who shouted abuse was also wrong. But I suspect the main reason he's turned comments down is the sheer volume of nonsense replies denying that it was a cycleway (even if it was a CRAP one) or suggesting he should have ridden into oncoming traffic.

But looking at the point he was trying to make: I do share his view that people are being more abusive towards people riding bikes this week, probably due to coverage of the Grey case. Today, I had a few motorists who kindly reversed back into their turnings (after questionably pulling out across the cycle lane hoping for people in the other lanes to slow and allow them out) but I also had far more motorists shout abuse and fail to give way where they ought than usual. I had two moving motorists with two wheels up onto a kerbed cycleway I was using, too, which is fairly rare in daylight.

After left-hooking me and I made an emergency stop, one lady decided to wind her window down and ask me why I didn't stop sooner. I replied that I had priority because I was going straight on. Apparently, she felt that indicating gave her priority and asked how she was meant to stop with other motorists following her. I suggested she used her brakes and check the latest highway code. She told me to be careful. I said I was careful and that's why I stopped when I saw she was failing to slow... and then we both continued. No swearing or threats either way, but still more aggression than usual, the above coming not long after a BMW had accelerated well over the limit to deter me using a crossing in front of them. Thankfully, after that, a passing passenger called out for me to pull a wheelie (unlikely with shopping on the back!) and a smallholder had free range eggs for sale, so I was happier by the time I reached home.
 

icowden

Veteran
Location
Surrey
Who's carrying a long pole???
It was to represent a person and a bicycle. Metaphor init.
Runners near you must be better-behaved than near me. There's loads of them here now, preparing for GEAR in May or maybe the marathon in April. Absolutely no farking road sense, most of them: abrupt changes in directions, U-turns, sudden complete stops, ... It's testament to how safe our cycleways are and the skill of local cyclists that the town isn't littered with crash victims yet.
Point taken :-)
 

Dolorous Edd

Senior Member
Legal commentator Joshua Rozenberg has obtained and published the Judge's remarks on passing sentence:

https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/why-grey-got-three-years

The court heard evidence from a number of witnesses, and I found William Walker to be reliable and thoughtful. He is a cyclist and driver. He said that you and Mrs Ward appeared to have come to a halt in front of each other and you made a lateral sweeping movement with your left arm which was directed at Mrs Ward. He said “it either made contact or she recoiled and fell”. She fell into the busy ring road where she was killed by a passing car.
 

HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
It certainly appeared, even in her own admission that she made contact. On the video provided to the public, it certain appears so, but i wouldn't make judgement based on it, but her own words swayed it. Light contact or not, a 77 year old on a small wheeled bicycle certainly wouldn't need much to send her balance off, without being too personal, the convict is on the larger side so what might be perceived as "light" may vary.
 
It certainly appeared, even in her own admission that she made contact. On the video provided to the public, it certain appears so, but i wouldn't make judgement based on it, but her own words swayed it. Light contact or not, a 77 year old on a small wheeled bicycle certainly wouldn't need much to send her balance off, without being too personal, the convict is on the larger side so what might be perceived as "light" may vary.

Yes - the concept that there was contact and especially if the cyclist stopped made a huge difference to the original posts I saw

As we all know, if you stop a bike and put your foot down - then you are very vulnerable to being knocked off in the direction away from the foot that is on the floor

The sentence did seem long - but the more details I see the more I can see why

I suspect that if I saw the whole trial I would be even more convinced
 

numbnuts

Legendary Member
Yes - the concept that there was contact and especially if the cyclist stopped made a huge difference to the original posts I saw

As we all know, if you stop a bike and put your foot down - then you are very vulnerable to being knocked off in the direction away from the foot that is on the floor

The sentence did seem long - but the more details I see the more I can see why

I suspect that if I saw the whole trial I would be even more convinced

If that had been me and I was near the kerb I would have fallen into the road....why, as I have always put my right foot down first which would mean it would have been in the road and I would have fallen over.
 

Mike_P

Guru
Location
Harrogate
If that had been me and I was near the kerb I would have fallen into the road....why, as I have always put my right foot down first which would mean it would have been in the road and I would have fallen over.

Would the kerb height be sufficient to cause a falling with your tight foot down and your leg acting as a brace. I also normally stop with my right foot and the only toppling over I have had was presumably due the camber of the road causing the c of g of the bike to shift to the left and over to the left I went.
 

numbnuts

Legendary Member
Would the kerb height be sufficient to cause a falling with your tight foot down and your leg acting as a brace. I also normally stop with my right foot and the only toppling over I have had was presumably due the camber of the road causing the c of g of the bike to shift to the left and over to the left I went.


It all depends on saddle high I like mine high, I can just about touch the ground with my toe, but a lady at 77 I would have thought she would be able to put both feet on the grounds, but you never quite know, if her saddle was a wee bit high and she was trying to reach the pavement, but in fact was over the road she would have fall over.
OK I think most people are trying to make excuses for an accident, but my money would be she was close to the edge of the said pavement and a slight push she went into the road.
Whatever happen one person died and two people (don't forget the car driver) will have to live with the facts of the case.
 

gcogger

Senior Member
The court heard evidence from a number of witnesses, and I found William Walker to be reliable and thoughtful. He is a cyclist and driver. He said that you and Mrs Ward appeared to have come to a halt in front of each other and you made a lateral sweeping movement with your left arm which was directed at Mrs Ward. He said “it either made contact or she recoiled and fell”. She fell into the busy ring road where she was killed by a passing car.
I'm confused by that statement. It seems clear from the video footage that the cyclist was still moving at a moderate speed when she fell into the road, and had not come to a halt. Is he saying that they came to a halt then started moving again?
I'm certainly not arguing with the judgement - having done jury service, I know you have to be there to understand the full details. I'm just ... confused!
 
I'm confused by that statement. It seems clear from the video footage that the cyclist was still moving at a moderate speed when she fell into the road, and had not come to a halt. Is he saying that they came to a halt then started moving again?
I'm certainly not arguing with the judgement - having done jury service, I know you have to be there to understand the full details. I'm just ... confused!

I read it as she was moving at a moderate speed - then came to a halt. Presumably because she couldn't get past without risking, or actual, contact due to the positioning of the assailant.
 

gcogger

Senior Member
I read it as she was moving at a moderate speed - then came to a halt. Presumably because she couldn't get past without risking, or actual, contact due to the positioning of the assailant.

Yes, that's how I read it too. My confusion is that the video clearly shows that she did not come to a halt, so it seems odd that the judge referred to the statement.
 
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