Horses were a major problem as cities got more populous. A horse produces about 20kg of excrement and about a gallon of piss a day, all those horses all that crap and all that piss constantly being churned up and splashed everywhere. In summer there was all the dust and the flies and of course the smell.Perhaps great granddad gbb was right to have had similar reservations about moving to the electric horseless carriage from horses
Why do people get such strong feelings over electric cars and solar panels etc.
- Thread starter Gillstay
- Start date
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dicko
Guru
- Location
- Derbyshire
Wash it away?! Excellent fertiliser for gardens and growers, I used to help grandad pick it up from the roads back in the late 40s. Grandads garden and allotment sustained us as a family in wonderful flowers and vegetables. ps I regularly buy horse manure for our garden each year.
gbb
Squire
- Location
- Peterborough
Arghhhh, must resist
oh f'kit....No doubt that's correct, economy of scale. And the environmental impact of that ? Are we just swapping one bad outcome for another ?
I keep asking myself, and this thread does make you think and question yourself (or at least it should, whatever your leaning)....WHY are many so averse to EVs ( or you could argue change..or equally the unknown)
I suspect many of us get bogged down in the more trivial, yet in the short term, equally important points.
But does it run deeper than the minutiae , range, claimed environmental benefits, technology etc etc etc....is it more to do with the inequality of life in general and the feeling that we're being driven off the roads...by those that will never feel the effects of it..indeed may benefit from the effects of it.
Why do you ( not you personally cougie) think people are revolting against ULEZ, it's a tool to reduce environmental concerns (you may or may not believe that) but that heavily impacts people who cannot afford it and equally, drives them off the road, creating inequality
Do people view EVs the same ? Perhaps, perhaps I'm musing a load of cobblers, who knows ?
I've said all along, I don't care what fuel a car uses, EV, ICE etc etc...but I have opportunity to freedom of the road, just like everyone else at the moment. It really MUST stay that way.
The richest in society are never really effected by these changes, there's already a massive gulf in equality and perhaps people have got to the point where they're deeply questioning things ?
gbb
Squire
- Location
- Peterborough
It's no problem when you can start with a full charge from your home charger, in a top of the range EV I'm sure.
I did the maths, looked at a second hand EV with around 60 miles range left....that reflects what millions of people will be forced to buy in the future.
I can't charge at home, 35 miles means I MUST charge every day, I don't get that charge for free from solar panels or on my drive How are millions of people going to charge them, it's going to be an awful lot more faff that popping into a petrol station for 5 minutes is.
Seriously no offence, but your reality is not what millions of people will face in the future ( unless there are monumental changes to infrastructure, battery tech etc etc )... and given how ALL our governments operate...I don't hold out much hope of that happening.
Yes I know there will be incremental changes at every level, range, charging availability, technology etc etc...but that's pie in the sky at the moment. But it needs to be more than incremental for most people, otherwise you're ( not you personally ) selling them something worse that what they already have. And people wonder why other people are questioning the outcome.
Reynard
Guru
- Location
- Cambridgeshire, UK
Arghhhh, must resist
No doubt that's correct, economy of scale. And the environmental impact of that ? Are we just swapping one bad outcome for another ?
I keep asking myself, and this thread does make you think and question yourself (or at least it should, whatever your leaning)....WHY are many so averse to EVs ( or you could argue change..or equally the unknown)
I suspect many of us get bogged down in the more trivial, yet in the short term, equally important points.
But does it run deeper than the minutiae , range, claimed environmental benefits, technology etc etc etc....is it more to do with the inequality of life in general and the feeling that we're being driven off the roads...by those that will never feel the effects of it..indeed may benefit from the effects of it.
Why do you ( not you personally cougie) think people are revolting against ULEZ, it's a tool to reduce environmental concerns (you may or may not believe that) but that heavily impacts people who cannot afford it and equally, drives them off the road, creating inequality
Do people view EVs the same ? Perhaps, perhaps I'm musing a load of cobblers, who knows ?
I've said all along, I don't care what fuel a car uses, EV, ICE etc etc...but I have opportunity to freedom of the road, just like everyone else at the moment. It really MUST stay that way.
The richest in society are never really effected by these changes, there's already a massive gulf in equality and perhaps people have got to the point where they're deeply questioning things ?
And the other side of this is that people with money to burn are likely to be far more into the willy waving than your average person. They'll get the EV to virtue signal, but they won't give up their cruises and holidays in the Bahamas etc etc etc. So really, in the long term, they're having a much greater impact on the environment than they like to appear to have.
Although having said that, things like cheap flights are equally damaging. That sort of stuff needs to be made WAY more expensive, and public transport needs to be made WAY better, particularly in rural areas (my nearest bus stop is 4 miles away), but that's touching on NACA stuff, so I'll just leave it at that.
IMHO it's not just about ICE / EV, people need to consciously change their habits collectively. As I said upthread, if we all did the little things... Trouble is, a lot of people don't want to do that. They don't want to give up their fast fashion, holidays in the sun, always having the latest and greatest in gadgetry etc.
I'm a petrolhead and that's not going to change - I have a very deep appreciation of the history and development of the motor car. But I won't drive anywhere unnecessarily - a lot of local journeys, weather permitting, are done by bicycle. I have reusable stuff wherever possible eg coffee cups / travel mugs, metal water bidons, period products, I don't buy fast fashion (what's the point as the quality is so poor), mend and repair stuff wherever possible, buy second hand, reconditioned, recycle as much as possible (fortunately East Cambs is one of the best in the UK for that). And tbh, I don't give a flying flamingo what people think of me.
Personally, I don't think EV is the sole answer to the issue of motoring pollution. Right now, the tech is still developing anyway, and beneath that lie some pretty inconvenient truths. And you've got the issue where people do like to be SEEN to be jumping onto the bandwagon. Some of us are more cautious in our approach because we see the potential hiccups rather than the benefits. The trouble is, TPTB seem to see it as a one size fits all panacea, when in reality, it really isn't.
And at the end of the day, the government are going to have to plug a big hole in their finances when they see that drop of in fuel duty. People will grin and bear it when it comes to fuel duty (a less heavy right foot does help here), but pricing roads per mile driven? That's going to go down like a lead balloon...
Indeed - another very non-trivial issue to which there seems to be no viable solution. What about those with no parking at or outside their houses? Those who live in flats? Those who live in rural areas who park on rough country lanes or cramped little side streets? Those who park in open, shared spaces such as market places and laybys?
Having a quick think about the parking in my town, I can't see how every vehicle currently parked in public could be supported by a viable charging infrastructure.
Many governments have gone hard at EVs and some are already backing off... I can see their enthusiasm becoming ever-cooler as adoption increases and the various issues become manifest rather than just theoretical.
Very well put - can identify with many bits of that and generally couldn't agree more
OP
OP
Gillstay
Veteran
Not enough ground clearance. I take my car down the woods for work and its not a SUV or even 4 wheel drive, but it needs a bit of clearance to avoid getting stuck. I expect something electric will turn up before long as stuff evolves. I just try to use it as little as possible now.
cougie uk
Guru
Arghhhh, must resist
No doubt that's correct, economy of scale. And the environmental impact of that ? Are we just swapping one bad outcome for another ?
I keep asking myself, and this thread does make you think and question yourself (or at least it should, whatever your leaning)....WHY are many so averse to EVs ( or you could argue change..or equally the unknown)
I suspect many of us get bogged down in the more trivial, yet in the short term, equally important points.
But does it run deeper than the minutiae , range, claimed environmental benefits, technology etc etc etc....is it more to do with the inequality of life in general and the feeling that we're being driven off the roads...by those that will never feel the effects of it..indeed may benefit from the effects of it.
Why do you ( not you personally cougie) think people are revolting against ULEZ, it's a tool to reduce environmental concerns (you may or may not believe that) but that heavily impacts people who cannot afford it and equally, drives them off the road, creating inequality
Do people view EVs the same ? Perhaps, perhaps I'm musing a load of cobblers, who knows ?
I've said all along, I don't care what fuel a car uses, EV, ICE etc etc...but I have opportunity to freedom of the road, just like everyone else at the moment. It really MUST stay that way.
The richest in society are never really effected by these changes, there's already a massive gulf in equality and perhaps people have got to the point where they're deeply questioning things ?
The poorest in society can't afford cars. However they're powered. They're the ones living in inner cities that benefit from the cleaner air that Ulez brings. Nobody has a god given right to pollute.
BoldonLad
Not part of the Elite
- Location
- South Tyneside
Is that 8.4 miles per day, or, 8.4 miles per journey?
Even with such short average journeys, it is quite possible a recharge would be necessary in the course of a day, if several short journeys were made.
The bottom line is, even for those who use their car for such short journeys, ICE is still more convenient, eg one visit to petrol station per month, vs (say) daily charging, (perhaps, at home, on your drive, for those who have that facility).
I recently changed my car. I did look very seriously at EV, but, decided on a hybrid, simply because IMHO the infrastructure is not quite there yet, and, in my price range, I feel the "development" phase in EVs has not stabilised yet, so, I felt the risk of it becoming rapidly obsolete was too great. Maybe, in 5 years or so, the scene will look different, and, I will go EV.
As an aside, I haven't noticed anyone state what is, to me, the obvious point, EVs are only "non-polluting" in fuel terms if the electricity to charge them has been produced by "renewables", burning millions of trees in Drax Power station is not environmentally friendly.
True, but there are a lot of people struggling who probably can justify having a car. Some people need it for their work. Having a car can give OAPs or disabled people some independence but most probably can't afford to splash out on a Tesla.
Besides, if the rich don't need to modify their behaviour because they can easily afford compliant cars, why is it fair that the less well off are financially forced to?
I am a big believer in reducing urban car use but pricing the less well off off the road whilst the rich carry on as usual is not the way to do it IMO.
All uphill
Still rolling along
- Location
- Somerset
Nearly all of the above reads, to me, like the squeals of us facing inevitable change, when we would quite like things to stay the same.
EV vs ICE is, imo, a minor sideshow.
The big issue is that we want to continue consuming more scarce resources than we can replace, and that is just not sustainable. I recognise I am one of that group.
What to do?
Imo we need to face and accept the reality. Maybe starting by recognising that climate change is resulting in the displacement of millions of people across the globe. Excess consumption is linked to immigration.
tldr; we need to reduce our consumption of goods and energy dramatically. Travelling by bike is a good thing .
EV vs ICE is, imo, a minor sideshow.
The big issue is that we want to continue consuming more scarce resources than we can replace, and that is just not sustainable. I recognise I am one of that group.
What to do?
Imo we need to face and accept the reality. Maybe starting by recognising that climate change is resulting in the displacement of millions of people across the globe. Excess consumption is linked to immigration.
tldr; we need to reduce our consumption of goods and energy dramatically. Travelling by bike is a good thing .
Everyone has a god-given right to pollute if it fuels the economy and puts money in the man's pocket.
True, the very poorest probably can't afford a car; however cars remain disproportionately "cheap" compared to other modes of transport, while those who are prepared to spend hours per day stuck in some vile commute and burn half a tank of fuel to get to work and back every day unfortunately raise the bar for everyone else - making a car necessary to remain "competitive" or indeed function at all in the car-centric society in which we reside.
Not quite sure what you're getting at with the ULEZ comment, however it doesn't really exclude vehicles on the basis of cost (my £500 2003 Civic is ULEZ exempt) while I doubt it really does much to deter the bulk of vehicular traffic from urban areas; only those that create a lot of particulate pollution - i.e. older Diesels.
While petrol seems expensive to most of us relative to what it used to cost, it's still obscenely cheap considering the energy it contains and its finite nature.
Whichever way you spin it, our energy consumption and subsequent pollution is unsustainable and no amount of distractionary, tertiary tech is going to change that... of course there's no political mileage in discussing the real issue.
Indeed... the rich are where the problem truly lies; the problem being that their arbitrary measure of wealth in constructed Fiat currency in no way reflects the true value of the energy they consume or distruction they wreak
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Agree on all the above; however what to do in more realistic terms? Fortify yourself against the coming collapse as the plebs are too brainwashed to see it coming while the incumbent overlords know there's no political mileage in telling the truth, and will bullsh*t us all until the last minute from the safety of their country retreats / bunkers / islands when the sh*t properly hits the fan.
As much as I'd genuinely like to believe in collective change for the greater good pulling us back from the brink, time and again as a race we've repeatedly proven that we're incapable of the necessary pragmatism and restraint.
The best thing any individual can do is secure their own future independent of the support that the masses have come to expect from government and provisions that "civilised" society provides. Not that I'm in any way capable of doing so myself, but IMO the pragmatic and capable will ensure they have the means to maintain themselves when the infrastructure we've come to rely on crumbles to nothing - be that in terms of currency, transport, food, water, energy, shelter, personal secuity..
Sustainable personal transport is one small part of this, however obviously it goes so much deeper...
Sleep well
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