What upgrade?

[Cyclist33]

I'm assuming here that Yellow Saddle, Citius and the like are all riding round on steel single speed bikes with wooden wheels and rod brakes...... no? why not?

Taking their arguments to the logical conclusion any technical "improvement" since the introduction of the chain driven "safety cycle" would not have been required and is merely pandering to consumerism.

Admittedly this is a case of reductio ad absurdum, but it does serve to illustrate the point that like most products advances in cycling are driven by small, incremental technical changes. Taken in isolation each change may not be necessary or have a measurable impact on performance, but taken over time they build up to an all-round better product.

It's also the fact that for a large number of people, the main driving force behind an "upgrade" is an aesthetic one. The fact it's "lighter, shinier, redder, or whatever" is the whole point, and assuming they can afford the outlay then good luck to them.

Oh, and finaly, without people spending money on upgrades/new bikes how long do you think the cycling industry will survive?

Lightness isn't an aesthetic property. Technical or ergonomic maybe.

I don't know if "It's also the fact that..." is a sensible way to put it - I mean there isn't a factual expression of your observation. But anyway. I think an issue which has been debated ad infinitum on here is that people can be driven by the feeling that they are improving the performance ability of their bike by spending humungous amounts of unnecessary cash. I was one of these people but after reading the various mathematical arguments alluded to previously, I came to the conclusion that they were sound, or at least that I couldn't refute them. Since then I have somewhat re-embraced my current wheelsets and abandoned my desperate longing for a new expensive one, as I have realized it would be a fool and his money, easily parted. One pleasant side-effect of this has been a renewed appreciation of my current rides.

That said, I am thinking about spending what would be for me a lot of money on some wheels in the Summer but this is purely on aesthetic and existence values and not out of any misguided or mismarketed ideas of performance enhancement. I believe that is what Yellow Saddle et al have been trying to open our eyes to, and it should be applauded, not ridiculed. It has saved me £100s.

 

[Justinslow]

Your claim that you've effectively used the reductio ad absurdum technique to disprove a statement is wrong. This is not how you use reduction ad absurdum.

Your second fallacy is the assumption that any one of us has disputed incremental technical changes. I don't see evidence of that anywhere. Further, aesthetics were and are acknowledged in the case in the link as well as elsewhere where I've argued the point. You can't use my ammo against me. I'm unsure what the Latin for that is. Perhaps

Why not rather debate the absurdity of this question: "Is there a set route to upgrade?" I'll propose an answer: the one that makes the industry the most money, which is of course, frame first, then gruppo, then wheels, then Chris King hubs in the wheels.

So, what is your point again? Oh yes, we should spend money to keep an industry in the money.

No I think his point is - it seems in "yellow saddle world" it's his way or the highway.
We obey oh king of Cyclechat, we obey..............

 

[Cyclist33]

No I think his point is - it seems in "yellow saddle world" it's your way or the highway.
We obey oh king of Cyclechat, we obey..............

That's not a serious counter-argument, surely?

 

[Hacienda71]

FIGHT FIGHT

 

[Cyclist33]

FIGHT FIGHT

No way - I'm going to flee on my new lighter weight wheelset

 

[Justinslow]

I think it depends what you want to do with your bike. Me, I want to go really really fast! If buying a set of (cheap) flashy wheels makes me a little bit faster then jobs a good un.
You cannot dictate to us what we should or should not be buying.
Who knows maybe some of us have potential to actually be quite good at cycling, and have the money to try different components and find what works and what doesn't for ourselves. Or indeed vast sums of money burning holes in our pockets and actually enjoy spending money on our rides.
( disclaimer- being a natural tight wad this last bit doesn't come easy for me or the bit about having vast sums of money).

 

[Kestevan]

Do you drive a car? If so, presumably you drive a 'supercar', like a Ferrari, or Lamborghini, or some other such exotica.....no? why not?

Cost partially.
But nor do I drive a model T.
The car I do drive has benefited massively from incremental technical upgrades which allow its performance to eclipse that of the exotica of not that long ago at much reduced cost and improved reliability.

 

[outlash]

I think it depends what you want to do with your bike. Me, I want to go really really fast! If buying a set of (cheap) flashy wheels makes me a little bit faster then jobs a good un.
You cannot dictate to us what we should or should not be buying.
Who knows maybe some of us have potential to actually be quite good at cycling, and have the money to try different components and find what works and what doesn't for ourselves. Or indeed vast sums of money burning holes in our pockets and actually enjoy spending money on our rides.
( disclaimer- being a natural tight wad this last bit doesn't come easy for me or the bit about having vast sums of money).

.

Hang on, you said a while back you had enough money to buy a Pinarello?

 

[Kestevan]

......
So, what is your point again? Oh yes, we should spend money to keep an industry in the money.

Not exactly.... My point is that you seem awfully quick to criticise anyone who wants to spend money. Yeah, in many cases the benefits may be minimal but at least as far as I'm concerned if someone can afford to "waste" money on upgrades then good luck to them. At the end of the day there are many people worldwide who's livelihood relies on that consumerism.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Not exactly.... My point is that you seem awfully quick to criticise anyone who wants to spend money. Yeah, in many cases the benefits may be minimal but at least as far as I'm concerned if someone can afford to "waste" money on upgrades then good luck to them. At the end of the day there are many people worldwide who's livelihood relies on that consumerism.

No, I have not criticized anyone for wanting to spend money. I have criticized people for suggesting that there will be big improvements when upgrading to wheels. In particular, in this case, I've clearly spent out my criticism. I've also taken a cynical view of people who spend (their) money on buying equipment and then justifying their purchases by citing improvements. Lots of lap-dogs then arrive and affirm the scenario. The other way round, where they first ask what to spend money on (just think that through for a minute - what should I spend some money on?) - and then get lots of pseudo justification for the spend, I've also criticized.

In addition, I've played along when someone says they want something 'cause they want it 'cause they think it is pretty.

There is a difference.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

I think it depends what you want to do with your bike. Me, I want to go really really fast! If buying a set of (cheap) flashy wheels makes me a little bit faster then jobs a good un.
You cannot dictate to us what we should or should not be buying.
Who knows maybe some of us have potential to actually be quite good at cycling, and have the money to try different components and find what works and what doesn't for ourselves. Or indeed vast sums of money burning holes in our pockets and actually enjoy spending money on our rides.
( disclaimer- being a natural tight wad this last bit doesn't come easy for me or the bit about having vast sums of money).

Buy what you like. That should be clear. But don't come and tell us you want to spend money to make you go faster and expect all to act like lap dogs and suggest "wheels." If I were to tell you that wheels will make you faster, I would be dishonest. If you want to go fast, get a training program, lose weight, build muscle in the right places, lose muscle in the wrong places, eat right, learn tactics and strategy, learn to ride in a peloton, race lots and become competitive. For anyone with potential, the latter would be a better strategy than throwing cash at the process.

 

[Citius]

^^^ that.

 

[Rob3rt]

My fancy wheels definitely help me go faster...

 

[Hacienda71]

My fancy wheels definitely help me go faster...

Shhh you might give people the wrong impression.

 

[vickster]

My fancy wheels definitely help me go faster...

In your case, in addition to all the above from yellow saddle not instead of