What makes you visible on the road (at night)

[mickle]

Why then do all motorway workers, council workers, police, ...every bugger wear them if they're so useless. Is every wearer, cyclist or not, deluding themselves...i think not.

And the kids at SWMBO's school wear hi-viz on school trips. In broad daylight. It's all about 'helf and safety' and risk assessments, but what everyone fails to acknowedge or simply forgets is that the fashion for dressing up in hi-viz is yet another example of the way we transfer responsibility away from the people actually causing the danger and place it firmly on the shoulders of the people who are exposed to the danger.

The reason (some of) we wear it is because of the risk of not being seen and therefore possibly being run over by a motor vehicle. But the real issue here is drivers not looking properly, not our supposed invisibility.

It's a very sorry state of affairs when every bugger who ever steps off a pavement feels the need to wear it because of the perceived risk.

 

[BentMikey]

gbb, you missed my point that cycle craft isn't just about road positioning. It's also about anticipating other drivers. I'll bet in that incident you had the twitch, but ignored it. That twitch, or little voice in my ear has been there for every close call I've had. Like you I ignored it a couple of times when I shouldn't have. Planning ahead, anticipation, and allowing yourself the time and space to use an exit route.

As for everyone wearing hiviz, that doesn't make it effective, that makes it less and less effective, and more like camoflage. It's CYA thinking, not realistic risk reduction.

I don't have an aversion to hiviz, but to its negative effects on our safety.

 

[gbb]

gbb, you missed my point that cycle craft isn't just about road positioning. It's also about anticipating other drivers. I'll bet in that incident you had the twitch, but ignored it. That twitch, or little voice in my ear has been there for every close call I've had. Like you I ignored it a couple of times when I shouldn't have. Planning ahead, anticipation, and allowing yourself the time and space to use an exit route.

As for everyone wearing hiviz, that doesn't make it effective, that makes it less and less effective, and more like camoflage. It's CYA thinking, not realistic risk reduction.

I don't have an aversion to hiviz, but to its negative effects on our safety.

BM Clearly we have differing opinions, and we can talk forever about the pro's and cons of certain clothing....hopefully it doesnt make it a rant

You REALLY shouldnt make assumptions about my, or anyone elses riding qualities, style or safety, you dont know me, you havnt seen me ride...you make yourself sound holier than thou .

I dont have to explain how i deal with situations like that...but i will for the record.
Completely unit road, i have right of way (priority if you prefer...it's just a word).
Approaching a T junction on the right. I can see the spill of a drivers lights, so i know a car is approaching, and will probably want to join 'my' road.
Is he going to turn left..in which case he will have no impact on me.
Is he going to turn right..which may affect me.
Will we meet at the same point in time.
Will he see my lights etc....all these thing and more are going through your head...in seconds.

As i approach the junction (say 5 metres away)...he's arriving, and i assume looking, and i assume he's seen me because he made no attempt to go.
I have inevitably backed off a bit, because there 'may' be a situation here. Thats normal....
At about that point, i usually wobble my handlebars a bit, it causes movement of my light...hopefuly it will alert the driver to my presense.

He's still waiting....i'm now in front of him.....and he goes

Whatever you do, however much roadcraft you have, whatever you wear, whatever lights you have, situations will occur that put things completely out of your control. Dont infer my roadcraft is suspect, because if a driver doesnt look...thats 100% out of your control.

Back to HiViz.
FWIW, it is a bit of an abomination style wise. I dont use it for its fluorescence...thats not neccessary IMO. Its the reflective bands that have most, and very very worthwhile properties. They can be seen from maybe a mile away. Extremely valuable in the dark countryside. It alerts a driver to your presense long long before he can see some lights.
As the discussions about being seen at night, fluorescent clothing is as you stated irrelevent. Its the reflective element thats important. HiViz just happens to have very good reflectives...so does a host of other clothing...if you want to buy it.
Hi Viz, for better or worse is available to just about everyone....it fits the bill.
Would i prefer a nice jacket with reflectives...of course.
Do i want to spend MORE money than i already do on cycling...i'd like to, but i wont, so hi viz, at the right time does the job.

Do i care (or do i believe) the insurance companies will use lack of HiViz as contributary to any accident i may or may not have in the future...no. I wear HiViz simply for its reflective properties....
Do i care (or do i believe) Hi Viz has a negative impact on society...maybe i agree a bit...but it wont stop me being seen and safe (hopefully..i am a realist)

Put simply, HiViz is part of millions of people everyday workwear. It doesnt bother me too much if its not stylish because its very effective and i dont have to fork out another £50 mimimum for ANOTHER jacket to fill my wardrobe.
That said, my next jacket will have decent reflectives on, then i wont have to think about a HiViz

 

[BentMikey]

OK, so you've confirmed what I thought about your sixth sense in that incident. Sure, occasionally there's nothing you can do, but those situations are by far the exception. My point still stands, good roadcraft will fix a hundred times the number of situations that hiviz/helmets might.

 

[gbb]

We are, of course, both right BM.
Remembering that newbies are reading these posts, its obvious that a balance needs to be put across. Roadcraft / cyclecraft is a important as being seen..equally so IMO.
Thats that one done to death i guess Onwards.......

 

[Tynan]

'Those who wear it make the roads more dangerous for those who choose not to.'

dear god, the anti are out on this one

again, it's not an either or choice, a rider can use good road craft and still wear hi viz yeah?

My opinion remains that I see a rider in hi viz before I see one not, I've been walking down Bishopsgate the last week and I see those in Hiviz just fine, there's been the odd too cool courier type that I saw later, still in good time, but I wouldn't have in less than broad daylight

 

[BentMikey]

We are, of course, both right BM.
Remembering that newbies are reading these posts, its obvious that a balance needs to be put across. Roadcraft / cyclecraft is a important as being seen..equally so IMO.
Thats that one done to death i guess Onwards.......

I'd agree with that, with the provisio that being seen is entirely different from wearing hiviz. We are more than visible enough with normal clothing in daylight, and BS standard lights and reflectors at night. Once you're at this point, road craft is far more important than anything else.

Hiviz doesn't add usefully to the visibility you already have.

 

[summerdays]

We are more than visible enough with normal clothing in daylight, ....

Hiviz doesn't add usefully to the visibility you already have.

I still think it does ... two policemen were walking towards me today, one in black uniform, the other with a hi-vis jacket on. He was far more noticable than his colleague especially in the gloomy shadows that you get at this time of year. I took more notice of the Hi-vis one and I want cars to take more notice of me.

(They were particularly nice policemen as they ticketed the lorry parked on the actual junction completely obscuring the view).

 

[gbb]

I'd agree with that, with the provisio that being seen is entirely different from wearing hiviz. We are more than visible enough with normal clothing in daylight, and BS standard lights and reflectors at night. Once you're at this point, road craft is far more important than anything else.

Hiviz doesn't add usefully to the visibility you already have.

I wonder, are we all singing from the same hymn sheet.


When i talk about hi viz, i'm particually concentrating on the reflective bands that are on most, if not all hi viz. Like this....

I notice the guy has reflective eyeballs....hi viz really has got everywhere

The fluoro element is irrelevant at night, we agree on that.
But it's the reflective effect i think 'can' be invaluable (although not in all cases, we agree on that.)

Have we crossed wires ?
Fluoro clothing need'nt have reflectives, so is relatively useless at night.
Hi Viz clothing is a mix or fluoro for the day, and reflective bands for the night.

 

[MartinC]

To me, that's not hi-viz it's reflective. Hi-viz is fluorescent - it needs ultra-violet light (daylight) to fluoresce and be hi-viz.

The big problem is that what matters is being seen not being visible. They aren't the same thing. Most of what you see is in your brain not your eyes. We filter and interpret everything that hits our eyes.

A SMIDSY isn't because you weren't visible it's because the other party didn't see you. Roadcraft can help a lot in ensuring that you're seen. Reflectives and Hi-viz help you to be visible.

 

[BentMikey]

To me, that's not hi-viz it's reflective. Hi-viz is fluorescent - it needs ultra-violet light (daylight) to fluoresce and be hi-viz.

The big problem is that what matters is being seen not being visible. They aren't the same thing. Most of what you see is in your brain not your eyes. We filter and interpret everything that hits our eyes.

A SMIDSY isn't because you weren't visible it's because the other party didn't see you. Roadcraft can help a lot in ensuring that you're seen. Reflectives and Hi-viz help you to be visible.

I'm with gbb on this - hiviz is the combination of both fluo and retro-reflectives. My bikes already have reflectives and lights, which is why hiviz isn't going to add anything useful at night.

 

[MartinC]

Not saying that my definition is right. Just highlights(?) is that Hi-viz seems to mean different things to different people. 'Cos fluo and reflective bhave diffferently it's confusing

 

[Moose]

got barend lights lately, I saw on them another bike, in daylight, very eye catching as they were in an odd place at an odd height and gave the bike width

I passed someone (I was driving) this evening in Southampton with bar end lights. I thought they were excellent - where can I get some?

 

[clutterydrawer]

Are we talking yellow flouro clothing, or the hi viz 'workwear' with refective bands or piping. The reflective bands can be seen way way before the yellow fluoro. It sticks out from bloody miles away...brilliant.

Another thing i saw t'other night...a guy riding along with flashing LED bands (velcro'd on i guess)on each lower leg. Not pretty, but very very effective. Lots of movement with his legs..and from the flashing LEDs. Lidls or the like perhaps. Havnt seen them in shops myself...

I have these - 2 for £5 from wilkinsons

I live where are no streetlights and they are visible from a fair way off, I've checked out of curiosity/boredom.

 

[spiro]

As a HPGT rider I need to ensure the bike is highly visible from behind and was thinking of putting some red 3M DIAMOND GRADE PRISMATIC TAPE down the back of the seat and possibly on a plate to go around the rear light on the back of the luggage rack. Two questions; (1) has anyone else done this and was it effective and (2) anyone know were I can get this in the UK ideally by the metre.