What happens when a cyclist breaks the speed limit?

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Horses are unreliable...well the ones I bet on are. :laugh:

On that subject, as someone with an understanding of horses, what's your view of horse racing in general? I would say show jumping, but it seems to avoid the controversy.

I'm a fan, but I did see a talk that claimed the horse was in survival mode, as it's programmed to assume anything on it's back is trying to eat it, and the race is to avoid being the weaker one in the herd that the predator is trying to catch.

I have mixed feelings about horseracing. There is no doubt that horses love to run. They are - I think - exceptionally beautiful when they run. Movement is part of them; they need to move. They run by instinct; they are the ultimate prey animal who have adapted over millennia to co-operate with mankind - originally the hunter! - in a whole host of ways - but not to be mere pets, and it is often when they are treated as a pet, that trouble can and does ensue.

Horses are not running from a person on their back AT ALL - you only have to watch any horse with a rider on its back to see that. They are totally accustomed to carrying a person on their back, and are attentive to the cues that person give them. If that cue is to run fast, then they are usually more than happy to obey, be they racehorse or riding school pony!
Horses are very good at disguising any physical issues once the adrenalin/endorphin is flowing - it's age-old self-preservation coming to the fore - only when the excitement is over will they show lameness etc - but even in the excitement and adrenalin of a race, a good jockey can often feel if something is 'not quite right' and that is when you will see the jockey pull the horse up in the middle of the race. Unfortunately the horse's system is so very good at this that it will often 'run through' a minor injury undetected, resulting in making the minor injury much, much worse … sometimes euthanasia-worse. Green screens on the racecourse and all that. HOWEVER what no-one tells you in the aftermath of the enquiry and the condemnation of 'cruel sports' and so on, is that this sort of thing can, and sometimes does, happen to horses in their own fields, minding their own business, being ridden with the utmost care by loving owners etc etc.

A bunch of doddery old horses in a field will have a run - you can almost hear their joints creaking when they set off! They are running in response to an instinct to flee which is usually buried but which sometimes emerges, who knows why … sometimes it is started off by - literally - a gust of wind blowing the tail of one of the horses between its legs. It makes you laugh to see it - and worry, because it only takes an awkward clod of turf or a badly-placed molehill, for one of these oldsters to twist or break something, or slip into barbed wire or a protruding branch or stake. You can't wrap them in cotton-wool … and a minute after it started the whirlwind ends and they stand there, sides heaving, heads hanging, easing their old joints and pretending it never happened!

HOWEVER that said I believe that racehorses are trained and raced far too young, and some of the physical attributes bred for - especially for success at a young age, which is where the MASSIVE money lies - can be (although aren't always) to the detriment of the wellbeing of the horse as it matures. In addition, the mental health of a long-term, fully-stabled horse is rarely the best, although there are many ways to mitigate this which are increasingly better understood and more widely accepted nowadays than they were until about 40 or so years ago, and most racing stables, at least in this country, are pretty on-the-ball about that sort of thing.

Certainly the racing industry isn't perfect - is any industry? - but on the whole the horse, and veterinary medicine in particular, would be much the poorer without it. From what I understand, too, much of the early impetus in both drug use/detection wrt human sports, and in human fertilisation studies, was carried along on the back of racing-industry-funded research into the two subjects of 'horse doping' and issues with infertility in top racehorses.
Anyway, that's far too much off-topic already, better take this to a private convo if you want to expand on it!
 
I have mixed feelings about horseracing. There is no doubt that horses love to run. They are - I think - exceptionally beautiful when they run. Movement is part of them; they need to move. They run by instinct; they are the ultimate prey animal who have adapted over millennia to co-operate with mankind - originally the hunter! - in a whole host of ways - but not to be mere pets, and it is often when they are treated as a pet, that trouble can and does ensue.

Horses are not running from a person on their back AT ALL - you only have to watch any horse with a rider on its back to see that. They are totally accustomed to carrying a person on their back, and are attentive to the cues that person give them. If that cue is to run fast, then they are usually more than happy to obey, be they racehorse or riding school pony!
Horses are very good at disguising any physical issues once the adrenalin/endorphin is flowing - it's age-old self-preservation coming to the fore - only when the excitement is over will they show lameness etc - but even in the excitement and adrenalin of a race, a good jockey can often feel if something is 'not quite right' and that is when you will see the jockey pull the horse up in the middle of the race. Unfortunately the horse's system is so very good at this that it will often 'run through' a minor injury undetected, resulting in making the minor injury much, much worse … sometimes euthanasia-worse. Green screens on the racecourse and all that. HOWEVER what no-one tells you in the aftermath of the enquiry and the condemnation of 'cruel sports' and so on, is that this sort of thing can, and sometimes does, happen to horses in their own fields, minding their own business, being ridden with the utmost care by loving owners etc etc.

A bunch of doddery old horses in a field will have a run - you can almost hear their joints creaking when they set off! They are running in response to an instinct to flee which is usually buried but which sometimes emerges, who knows why … sometimes it is started off by - literally - a gust of wind blowing the tail of one of the horses between its legs. It makes you laugh to see it - and worry, because it only takes an awkward clod of turf or a badly-placed molehill, for one of these oldsters to twist or break something, or slip into barbed wire or a protruding branch or stake. You can't wrap them in cotton-wool … and a minute after it started the whirlwind ends and they stand there, sides heaving, heads hanging, easing their old joints and pretending it never happened!

HOWEVER that said I believe that racehorses are trained and raced far too young, and some of the physical attributes bred for - especially for success at a young age, which is where the MASSIVE money lies - can be (although aren't always) to the detriment of the wellbeing of the horse as it matures. In addition, the mental health of a long-term, fully-stabled horse is rarely the best, although there are many ways to mitigate this which are increasingly better understood and more widely accepted nowadays than they were until about 40 or so years ago, and most racing stables, at least in this country, are pretty on-the-ball about that sort of thing.

Certainly the racing industry isn't perfect - is any industry? - but on the whole the horse, and veterinary medicine in particular, would be much the poorer without it. From what I understand, too, much of the early impetus in both drug use/detection wrt human sports, and in human fertilisation studies, was carried along on the back of racing-industry-funded research into the two subjects of 'horse doping' and issues with infertility in top racehorses.
Anyway, that's far too much off-topic already, better take this to a private convo if you want to expand on it!

Your response is much appreciated, and I take your additional point about diverting the thread further, so that saves me some typing. ^_^

Thanks for the offer of a discussion off the board, but I was only going to make a related observation, and I'm sure it will pop up another time, where others can add their view.

Thanks again. :okay:
 

dodgy

Guest
Apparently they knew I couldn't be done but wanted a "discussion".
"Am I being detained"? Is what I was told to say by a copper friend if held up for something frivolous. The answer will usually be no, so you're free to leave even if he's still speaking.
 

Boopop

Guru
And we wonder why cyclists are despised by so many motorists?......

It's 20 for a reason, twenty is plenty, it's a limit not a target! But don't worry about it, you just carry on as you are, being an ambassador for our activity and helping to cement driver/cyclist relations.

Collective responsibility is a load of bull s*#£. Do you drive well partly because you want to be an "ambassador" for other drivers? Give me a break. People who see one cyclist behaving in a way they don't appreciate and then tar all of them with the same brush are simpletons and can't be helped anyway.
 

dodgy

Guest
And we wonder why cyclists are despised by so many motorists?......

It's 20 for a reason, twenty is plenty, it's a limit not a target! But don't worry about it, you just carry on as you are, being an ambassador for our activity and helping to cement driver/cyclist relations.
The speed limits are set for a number of reasons. Kinetic energy mainly.
 

Johnsco

Old Fettler
In the 1930s, when my dad ran the local cycling club, his mate Harry Bolton was prosecuted and fined for "riding a bicycle furiously and recklessly".
Amazing, as he was the most inoffensive and lovely guy imaginable.
I knew him when he was an old man.
He ran the local bike shop and my first bike came from there.
 

nickyboy

Norven Mankey
Collective responsibility is a load of bull s*#£. Do you drive well partly because you want to be an "ambassador" for other drivers? Give me a break. People who see one cyclist behaving in a way they don't appreciate and then tar all of them with the same brush are simpletons and can't be helped anyway.
Completely disagree. The number of conversations I've had with non cyclists along the lines of "all red light jumpers" (I'm not), "blocking the narrow roads two abreast" (I don't) show that other road users regard cyclists as a homogenous group. All cyclists are impacted by the behaviour of other cyclists

Don't you see the parallels with the common trope here in CC that all BMW drivers are inconsiderate idiots?
 

Brandane

Legendary Member
Location
Costa Clyde
Don't you see the parallels with the common trope here in CC that all BMW drivers are inconsiderate idiots?
On the same theme though, do you really think BMW drivers care what anyone thinks of them? I doubt if there are people on a BMW drivers forum saying "listen chaps, we really must start using our indicators, and not tailgating, and do you know there are actually 3 lanes we can use on most motorways?"
As a cyclist, I will do what I consider to be right. I can't and won't carry the can for the "yoofs with stunt bikes on pavement" or "all the gear and no idea" types of cyclist.
There are nobs on bikes just the same as there are nobs in cars - of all makes. We are not a special breed or an exclusive club, which is actually a good thing.
 
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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Completely disagree. The number of conversations I've had with non cyclists along the lines of "all red light jumpers" (I'm not), "blocking the narrow roads two abreast" (I don't) show that other road users regard cyclists as a homogenous group. All cyclists are impacted by the behaviour of other cyclists
1. There will always be red light jumpers, wheeliers and so on, as cameras and number plates and more police have not stopped drivers misbehaving, so we might as well ride safely and legally but without bowing to bad drivers who want us to gutter-hug and stuff.

2. Those drivers are simpletons, like they said. Nothing we will do will change their opinion.
 

Boopop

Guru
Completely disagree. The number of conversations I've had with non cyclists along the lines of "all red light jumpers" (I'm not), "blocking the narrow roads two abreast" (I don't) show that other road users regard cyclists as a homogenous group. All cyclists are impacted by the behaviour of other cyclists

Don't you see the parallels with the common trope here in CC that all BMW drivers are inconsiderate idiots?

I know some drivers view cyclists as a homogenous group. My point is that I don't decide my behaviour based on what those people might think of the whole group. If they're dumb enough to think that because they saw one person on a bike do something they don't like, that they're all the same, I don't think it's worth trying to behave in a certain way just to appease them. No-one treats all drivers as a big homogenous group like that, so I don't see why I should be expected to be judged in that way. It's double standards, mainly because some corners of the media like to "other" cyclists. Changing your behaviour to try and specifically change a stereotype just helps reinforce the stereotype.

At least that view on BMW drivers is partially backed up by evidence (https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/26/world/expensive-car-drivers-study-scli-scn-intl/index.html), while the evidence for cyclists shows on average we break fewer road laws (https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlto...orists-finds-new-video-study/?sh=25b71aad4bfa).
 
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Dogtrousers

Kilometre nibbler
Do people actually believe that different makes of car are driven by entirely different, separate, tribes of drivers? BMW drivers do this, Audi drivers do that.

I suppose it could be true. "Ferrari drivers go very fast" I imagine might have a ring of truth to it. If it is true is it going to me more than a slight statistical tendency? "BMW drivers are 3% more likely to do this; Audi drivers are 2% less likely to do that".

Maybe it is true, and the fact that I don't know enough about cars to recognise the different brands means I can't discern the patterns.
 

nickyboy

Norven Mankey
... and BMW drivers aren't routinely put in danger (often injured) by cyclists.

It's a totally flawed comparison.
No it isn't

Some BMW drivers drive in a rubbish way...ergo all BMW drivers are rubbish drivers (at least here on Cyclechat) ie a homogenous group

Some cyclists cycle in a rubbish way...ergo only those that cycle in a rubbish way are rubbish cyclists (at least here on Cyclechat) ie not a homogenous group

You see the double standards being applied here? This is why, like @I like Skol I make damn sure I stick to the rules of the road because cyclists are viewed as a homogenous group by some and if I can do just a little bit to show that cyclists don't cycle in a rubbish way that has to be a positive thing
 
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