What an HGV sees of you

[charlie_lcc]

Hi, I have just had this chat brought to my attention. Like Bradane I have a lot of experience driving lorries, artics and rigids although I got my licence several decades before him.
As others have said the TfL video and poster is deeply misleading. Most of the cyclists are not in a blindspot, the lorry has out of date with mirrors set so badly to be illegal. I made my view clear when it first came out http://lcc.org.uk/articles/transport-for-london-lorry-safety-poster-misinforms-cyclists-and-drivers . After several conversations with TfL it became clear that the people who set up the video and poster shoot misunderstood the requirements for vision from lorry mirrors. Informally TfL said they would use different imaging if we stopped waging a public campaign against it. That message hasn't quite got through to all levels at TfL.
In London cyclist fatalities with turning artics are very rare. Mostly they involve large rigid lorries like tippers and cement mixers. The two cyclists killed in artic crashes in London in the last two years were run down from behind in heavy traffic situations.
In my opinion the most hazardous blind spot area for the driver of a large lorry is to the left side of the cab from about 1.5 metres away from the cab to about 4 metres away. This is the area where unseen cyclists are before the lorry makes a turn across their path, failing to give way because the cyclist is hidden from view. It is hard to turn this into useful advice for cyclists. The new police video on the subject will say something like:
the more space a lorry has left you the more likely it is that he's going to turn left
the more inviting it looks the more dangerous it is

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

Hi, I have just had this chat brought to my attention. Like Bradane I have a lot of experience driving lorries, artics and rigids although I got my licence several decades before him.
As others have said the TfL video and poster is deeply misleading. Most of the cyclists are not in a blindspot, the lorry has out of date with mirrors set so badly to be illegal. I made my view clear when it first came out http://lcc.org.uk/articles/transport-for-london-lorry-safety-poster-misinforms-cyclists-and-drivers . After several conversations with TfL it became clear that the people who set up the video and poster shoot misunderstood the requirements for vision from lorry mirrors. Informally TfL said they would use different imaging if we stopped waging a public campaign against it. That message hasn't quite got through to all levels at TfL.
In London cyclist fatalities with turning artics are very rare. Mostly they involve large rigid lorries like tippers and cement mixers. The two cyclists killed in artic crashes in London in the last two years were run down from behind in heavy traffic situations.
In my opinion the most hazardous blind spot area for the driver of a large lorry is to the left side of the cab from about 1.5 metres away from the cab to about 4 metres away. This is the area where unseen cyclists are before the lorry makes a turn across their path, failing to give way because the cyclist is hidden from view. It is hard to turn this into useful advice for cyclists. The new police video on the subject will say something like:
the more space a lorry has left you the more likely it is that he's going to turn left
the more inviting it looks the more dangerous it is

Aha, and I just sent LCC an email about the feasibility of swivelly mirrors! I await a response.

 

[theclaud]

Hi, I have just had this chat brought to my attention. Like Bradane I have a lot of experience driving lorries, artics and rigids although I got my licence several decades before him.
As others have said the TfL video and poster is deeply misleading. Most of the cyclists are not in a blindspot, the lorry has out of date with mirrors set so badly to be illegal. I made my view clear when it first came out http://lcc.org.uk/articles/transport-for-london-lorry-safety-poster-misinforms-cyclists-and-drivers . After several conversations with TfL it became clear that the people who set up the video and poster shoot misunderstood the requirements for vision from lorry mirrors. Informally TfL said they would use different imaging if we stopped waging a public campaign against it. That message hasn't quite got through to all levels at TfL.
In London cyclist fatalities with turning artics are very rare. Mostly they involve large rigid lorries like tippers and cement mixers. The two cyclists killed in artic crashes in London in the last two years were run down from behind in heavy traffic situations.
In my opinion the most hazardous blind spot area for the driver of a large lorry is to the left side of the cab from about 1.5 metres away from the cab to about 4 metres away. This is the area where unseen cyclists are before the lorry makes a turn across their path, failing to give way because the cyclist is hidden from view. It is hard to turn this into useful advice for cyclists. The new police video on the subject will say something like:
the more space a lorry has left you the more likely it is that he's going to turn left
the more inviting it looks the more dangerous it is

Illuminating post - thanks. The statement in bold is perceptive, and your closing couplet for me illustrates the foolishness as well as the injustice of the widespread desire to shift the responsibility onto the vulnerable road user. There are several simultaneous threads on related subjects here and I would imagine you have not been able to comb through them all. The important thing is that, if we wish to create a road environment which is always welcoming to novice, inexpert, untrained or nervous cyclists, then we are going to have to recognize that the danger must be controlled at its source. Your post reinforces my conviction that such vehicles are fundamentally under-manned (or womanned, but it's a de facto thing). Forgive me for the self-quoting ego fest, but I wrote this in the other thread:

Take the persistent issue about poor visibility down the left-hand side of the truck. How about a second person in the cab who was responsible for ensuring that the turn is clear?

I'm not talking about someone just for company who occasionally looks out of the window. At the moment the haulage industry is taking a gamble in response to the recent outcry. It is going out of its way to demonstrate that its vehicles are unfit to share public spaces. Not to take responsibility for this as they should, but to do the exact opposite - using fear to warn other users out of the way, and having done so, blaming them if they get squashed. Or to put it more simply, bullying. In the video below (which I think may have been posted already) the driver says "I cannot see at all [down] that side of my trailer". It doesn't occur to him for a second that it is an admission which should bar his vehicle from the road entirely. The rhetorical task needed is to frame these bullying tactics for what they are. My suggestion above is a response to the fact that it is clearly beyond the power of a driver alone to guarantee safe operation of many of these kinds of vehicle on the road. It may not be beyond the power of a two-person team, one of whom has defined responsibility when driving for nearside clearance, and can also act as a banksman when required.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25007830

.

 

[Origamist]

Ultimately at some point it's all about the cyclist taking some responsibility for their own actions instead of trying to shift the blame elsewhere. You can stick as many extra mirrors as you like down the nearside of a lorry but at some point he has to look straight on and down the offside while completing that turn and we all know that that's more than enough time for a cyclist to scoot up near side if he's of a mind to. In a battle between a cyclist and a HGV there's only ever going to be one winner. Keep yourself safe and keep your distance.

I don’t think comments about shifting “blame elsewhere” is constructive when considering the longstanding and tragic issue of trying to reduce the danger posed by HGVs to cyclists and pedestrians – particularly in dense urban areas. It is better to adopt an approach that examines the “critical combination of circumstances” that led to the collision as this provides a far more detailed and rounded examination of the events and conditions that precipitated the collision.

As regards cyclists “taking some responsibility” no one is arguing that cyclists should abdicate responsibility, but this is, fundamentally, a lower order, diversionary tactic, based around the "swimming with the sharks" idiom (which Boris is employing with some success) as it shifts attention away from attempts to remove or mitigate the danger at source (be it through HGV restrictions/better enforcement and improved engineering/infrastructure developments).

It’s also worth remembering that recent data from the mid-to-late 2000s reported that less than 50% of all HGV/cyclist collisions nationwide are of the "left-turning HGV at a junction and cyclist on the nearside type" (contrary to what you might expect if you read posts on here). In London, this is a far more common collision type though (usually involving rigids). That said, it is often unclear if the cyclist filtered on the nearside of the HGV.

 

[XRHYSX]

right someone at work has made a proper vid of what we can see in our mirrors, if you go to youtube and search for truck blind spot movie. I cant link as I'm on my phone.
It goes to show alot of accidents could be at least 50/50 as geting yourself in to that position without the driver seeing you means you really are doing something wrong

 

[L14M]

This one?

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alPeQsH-UVM


Liam

 

[XRHYSX]

This one?

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alPeQsH-UVM


Liam

that's the one fella, thankyou

 

[MontyVeda]

This one?

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alPeQsH-UVM


Liam

Thanks for that... so none of those bikes are in the drivers blind spot and the image is wrong in that aspect. But I'll state one last time that the message behind the image in my avatar is to point out that as a cyclist, you don't want to be in the same position as any of those cyclists. It may be based on a lie, but it's still good sound advice.

 

[XRHYSX]

No never the best place to be, if you changed the scenery to night and / or had rain spray onthe mirrors, then its a whole different story, that's why i say lights on and hi-vis if possible, i don't want to hurt or kill any one so help me by helping yourself

 

[XRHYSX]

[QUOTE 2790014, member: 30090"]Hmm, I'd add one more postion to that video just to make sure:-

From the first position, go maybe 3-4 feet to the 'cyclists' left and see if you can see the cyclist either via the Class IV mirror that you have above the windscreen or you can see the top of the guys head through the passenger window/windscreen.[/quote]

On our lorries you would see the top of the cyclist, but we use low cabs, the big long distance and tipper lorries are higher up, you can hide a whole car in that gap!!

 

[XRHYSX]

[QUOTE 2790025, member: 30090"]I agree but this is typically the position that a cyclist would hold at a red light.

Where your cyclist stands is way to close imo and if a truck pulled up that close to me at a red light then I'd have words with the driver. That's why I say I'd want to see position one but 3-4 feet further out and see what the driver sees throught the mirrors/windscreen.[/quote]

I personaly would never pull up that close to anyone, be it a cyclist,car or lorry, i like to see the rear wheels touching the tarmac,
what I'm trying to get at is if your going to filter down that side of the lorry to the front before the lights change, just have a glance up at the driver to see if he sees you, dosnt matter if he smiles waves or giges you the finger it means he's seen you

 

[charlie_lcc]

On our lorries you would see the top of the cyclist, but we use low cabs, the big long distance and tipper lorries are higher up, you can hide a whole car in that gap!!

Thanks for the video, that's really useful.
If the person/bicycle is further forward then only the nearside overhead mirror will show them and only if they are a bit less than 2 metres away or closer. With the highest cabs they may not be visible for as much as 5 metres away! Even with your lorry you might not see the top of the head of a small cyclist 2 metres away.
When a cyclist is in that position, typically in the left lane when the lorry has moved right before a narrow turn, as the turn starts the cab can swing across the cyclist's path very quickly, especially for a large rigid lorry. If the lorry is doing only 5mph in the turn direction there is less than a second for the driver to see a cyclist in either overhead mirror. That's why a driver should be keeping a steady watch for cyclists moving into that position OR pull away very slowly and almost stop before turning to give cyclists time to get away.

 

[MontyVeda]

[QUOTE 2790009, member: 30090"]We got there in the end.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

I'd suppose it would be too much for you to apologise to me and Brandene?[/quote]

What have you done to deserve an apology? And with the tone expressed in the above... it's got to be a 'no'.

 

[MontyVeda]

You don't feel that the being based on a lie part could undermine the message?

the message is pretty clear... one doesn't need to know exactly what a driver can see from their cab to understand that it's advising one that it's not a good idea to be in the same position as any of the bikes in the scenario depicted. But I'm just repeating myself now... you know my stance. Any further questions on the subject, just refer to any of my earlier posts... there's a good chap

 

[MontyVeda]

You are at the level of telling toddlers not to touch the kettle when we need to aim for is grown-ups who know how to use it safely.

oh dear.

[QUOTE 2790644, member: 30090"]Are you going to change your avatar?[/quote]
I might... maybe change the text to something like, don't put yourself where these cyclists are.

edit...but then again,
I could make a festive one with the text All of these snowmen are in santa's blind spot ...and change the truck & bikes accordingly