Visibility

[BoldonLad]

It's always good to stand out, both in the day and at night.

Trouble is, you can be lit up like a Christmas tree, but nobody is going to see you, if they don't look.

This poor lad was driving home on a moped

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59596579 😢

Tragic.

But, not sure I see the relevance to taking sensible steps to be visible. I don't see how cherry picking instances where visibility aids (ie lights, reflective items etc) are not relevant, invalidates those situations where they may make a positive difference. After all, as this tragic case shows, no matter who is "right", the outcome for the cyclist may be death.

 

[Tribansman]

Some car manufacturer has decided that cars need to put on inappropriately bright lights on unnecessary occasions so now as a cyclist I need to put on inappropriately bright and flashing lights?

Under streetlights they're not needed and without streetlights, reflectors do a fine job. Bright lights are dazzling and distracting, I'd happily take a sledgehammer to the lot of them. Bike lights should be calibrated to the brightness of a single 1980s Ever Ready and no more.

If you're just talking about being seen, maybe, but reflectors don't light the way so you can see where you're going on unlit rural roads!

 

[icowden]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0925753518309871
Conclusion
"The attentional selection of a cyclist in the road environment during car driving depends partly on bottom-up processing (such as saliency related to colour contrast). However, the yellow cyclist jacket proved to be insufficient as a visibility aid."

That conclusion doesn't support what you think it supports. The study was on cyclists during daylight hours and concluded that in and of itself the jacket could not be evaluated as to whether it helped or not, due to other visibility factors.

Personally, I never worried about visibility when cycling in London at night due to the wall to wall streetlights. I'd still have a high vis (my rucksack), my lights and my shiny white helmet, but I wouldn't be that bothered about visibility as it's almost like daylight at night time on the main roads. However, once back in Surrey I was very much aware of how much darker it was on some sections of my commute. Indeed there is a 60mph road very near me with no streetlights, at the side of a reservoir. It is *very* *very* dark. I have seen cyclists almost hit due to their almost complete invisibility (no lights, dark clothing). Even the streetlights around here are "low light" ones.

My favourite visibility aid is hi-viz gloves. I do think they make a difference when indicating as they can be seen *very* clearly by motorists. As a driver I can "see" a cyclist much more easily if they are wearing a little bit of stuff that makes it easier to see.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

To summarise conclusions so far. Proper front and rear lights lit with backup red and white reflectors and attached to bike is all that’s necessary at night.

 

[mjr]

But, not sure I see the relevance to taking sensible steps to be visible. I don't see how cherry picking instances where visibility aids (ie lights, reflective items etc) are not relevant, invalidates those situations where they may make a positive difference. After all, as this tragic case shows, no matter who is "right", the outcome for the cyclist may be death.

Lovely to see someone play the death card, but visibility theatre won't stop you getting killed. You may get seen 20m earlier if drivers are looking but they would see you in plenty of time anyway. The problem is usually drivers not looking properly. Hi vis makes no significant positive contribution and distracts effort from things that work like Bikeability, lobbying for layout improvements and encouraging more people to ride.

 

[icowden]

Lovely to see someone play the death card, but visibility theatre won't stop you getting killed. You may get seen 20m earlier if drivers are looking but they would see you in plenty of time anyway. The problem is usually drivers not looking properly. Hi vis makes no significant positive contribution and distracts effort from things that work like Bikeability, lobbying for layout improvements and encouraging more people to ride.

And your study to support this is where exactly?

 

[mjr]

As a driver I can "see" a cyclist much more easily if they are wearing a little bit of stuff that makes it easier to see.

And how many have you hit because you did not see them? I suspect you are not the problem and the drawback of extra hi vis is it enables problematic drivers to continue until they meet some perfectly legal normal road users or street furniture they see incorrectly. Without prolific hi vis, such drivers might realise they cannot see well enough sooner and stop.

 

[mjr]

And your study to support this is where exactly?

I posted links to some studies finding no significant positive contribution a few pages ago and this discussion is itself an example of how it distracts cyclists from more effective actions.

 

[Dogtrousers]

My favourite visibility aid is hi-viz gloves. I do think they make a difference when indicating as they can be seen *very* clearly by motorists. As a driver I can "see" a cyclist much more easily if they are wearing a little bit of stuff that makes it easier to see.

I didn't think about that. My gloves are lemon yellow ones from Decathlon. I bought them primarily because I can actually get them on to my gnarled claws (which is imposible for many gloves), but I guess the hi-vizziness doesn't do any harm.

Well they were lemon yellow. They are a sort of yellowy beige with grey oil stripes now after many washes.

 

[icowden]

I posted links to some studies finding no significant positive contribution a few pages ago and this discussion is itself an example of how it distracts cyclists from more effective actions.

The first study you cited was a study as to whether appearance affects the way that motorists overtake. This study had no focus on visibility and was entirely looking at driver behaviour around overtakes. It did not focus on weather conditions, lighting or time of day.

The second (Phil Miller) is interesting but it only considers those who have "crashed" and not those who have not. At best it can demonstrate that if you have been knocked off your bike, your clothing is not a major factor in that collision. It does not attempt to evaluate whether many collisions are avoided if you are more visible.

Another study is specific to New Zealand, and demonstrates that geographical factors and numbers of people cycling may be a stronger factor than hi-viz when it comes to bike collisions.

We are cycling actually states

On the other hand, research suggests that retroreflective accessories designed to make you more conspicuous in the dark - especially ankle straps that move when you pedal - are probably worth the investment.

Suggesting that *some* visibility aids are beneficial in *some* circumstances.

 

[mjr]

Well they were lemon yellow. They are a sort of yellowy beige with grey oil stripes now after many washes.

If someone wanted to lessen the environmental benefits of cycling, making cyclists wear synthetic materials that pollute the water with every wash and need to be replaced frequently would be one way to do it!

 

[simongt]

but nobody is going to see you, if they don't look.

As happened in my case when I was rear ended by a motorist. As he was coming out of a slip road, ( daytime ) he was looking to his right and failed to see me in my fluro yellow jersey in front of him.

 

[BoldonLad]

Lovely to see someone play the death card, but visibility theatre won't stop you getting killed. You may get seen 20m earlier if drivers are looking but they would see you in plenty of time anyway. The problem is usually drivers not looking properly. Hi vis makes no significant positive contribution and distracts effort from things that work like Bikeability, lobbying for layout improvements and encouraging more people to ride.

I did not say hi-viz would stop you getting killed or injured. I said:

cherry picking exceptions was not helpful

Being dressed like an SAS soldier in head to toe black, while cycling in the dark or poor visibility, was not wise.

I can only assume you think the military and nature have got it all wrong with their attempts to make things less visible?

 

[Threevok]

As happened in my case when I was rear ended by a motorist. As he was coming out of a slip road, ( daytime ) he was looking to his right and failed to see me in my fluro yellow jersey in front of him.

This "mini" roundabout here is the absolute nightmare part of my commute home

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.692...4!1sW2sVS8_1HWkmPfQ8OWbTkQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Quite regularly, traffic from the left does not stop and give way. They barge straight out without looking to their right first and cut across the roundabout, so I have to be very careful. Buses are the most dangerous because of their length, even you wait a few feet back from the line, they still get very very close.

That aside, the worst incident (so far) I've had there, was in daylight. I was wearing high viz and with a flashing light on the front.

As I crossed the line to go around the roundabout, a driver (too busy looking left) drove straight out of that car park on the opposite side of the roundabout. They were so far across the roundabout, that they were on the wrong side of the road.

The driver hit me head on, knocked me back a few feet, then treated me to a barrage of insults, before driving off

As I mentioned above, it's good to make yourself as visible as possible. However, it's not a guarantee that drivers will see you, if they don't bother to look.

 

[icowden]

Lovely to see someone play the death card, but visibility theatre won't stop you getting killed.

But being seen *might* help stop you getting hit in the first place.

Hi vis makes no significant positive contribution and distracts effort from things that work like Bikeability, lobbying for layout improvements and encouraging more people to ride.

Will all due respect, I think that is utter tosh. No-one ever got put off riding a bike "because there was too much gear to wear". Most bike stuff you buy has some hi viz on it. If you want to just wear jeans and t-shirt that's fine, but it may be an idea not to dress like a ninja. Nor have I ever heard a council state " we were going to improve the roads and build a new bike lane but we spent all the money on a campaign to get people to wear yellow gilets".