Peter Armstrong
Über Member
I can do small hard 10-15 mile sessions all week then easy bust out a 100 mile rolling in zone 2/3 anytime,
trust your base training
- Thread starter JasonHolder
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Spinney
Bimbleur extraordinaire
- Location
- Back up north
Mod message: please stick to the topic, otherwise the thread will be locked.
Me?
400bhp
Guru
What are junk miles? If you mean going to the pub and back then you clearly you have no idea how hard that can be, specially on the way back.
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I have no idea what junk miles are but then I don't know what all the other sayings are .
I guess I am training to get better on my rides but not to prove a point to anyone . I'm not even doing it to prove a point to myself as I know I can work hard if I have too .
I enjoy the rides and yes I would love to compete at some point . I would assume my rides are " base miles " but now " junk miles " have been introduced I'm confused even more .
I guess I am training to get better on my rides but not to prove a point to anyone . I'm not even doing it to prove a point to myself as I know I can work hard if I have too .
I enjoy the rides and yes I would love to compete at some point . I would assume my rides are " base miles " but now " junk miles " have been introduced I'm confused even more .
OP
OP
JasonHolder
on youtube. learning to be a gent
Look at the original post
Rob3rt
Man or Moose!
- Location
- Manchester
Junk miles is simply a term used to describe miles done for the sake of miles, it offers very little physiological benefit yet takes up loads of time, i.e. it is a waste of time, it is junk. Why ride around for 6 hours when you can get the same benefit or greater in 90-120 minutes... (I am talking in training terms here, not just riding for "enjoyment")
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Peter Armstrong
Über Member
I would bet it isn't necessarily that base mileage is crap for you, I'd bet it is the overall training composition when you include more base mileage that slows your progress. Training composition is the key to making progress, not individual sessions. Although it could also be your understanding of base mileage that is the culprit
I always shunned low intensity work, determined to make as much pain as possible in a 6 hour training week, it worked to a degree, to the point I went from never raced to being in the top 15-20 in open time trial events with fields of 100+ riders, top 3 regularly in club events with fields of 30-40 riders and a good result in the National HC, i.e. went from nothing to fairly good in about 9 months of racing.
However since I started working with a coach, my training composition has changed a lot, even though many of the key sessions still remain in one guise or another, it still doesn't include much low intensity work, but has less overall time spent riding on the limit and I've only been outside the top 10 in one race this year and that was because I stood around taking my jacket off on the start line and set off 12 seconds late! Even with that penalty, I went over a minute faster than I ever had done in a 10 before and subtracting the penalty, it was a 30+ mph ride!
It is about knowing how hard to go, how long to go that hard and what to do when you aren't going hard!
I tried to understand this but what do you mean by Training composition?
Rob3rt
Man or Moose!
- Location
- Manchester
In short, how the individual components of your training fit together in order to elicit the desired changes i.e. what sessions you do, when you do them and in what proportion of the total training time you do them for. I'll give an example when I am on a computer rather than my phone.
Rob3rt
Man or Moose!
- Location
- Manchester
Okay, I'm at a pc now so will try to explain what I mean a little clearer hopefully). Quite frankly, it is a hard thing to get into the detail on a forum post, but there are tonnes of books and websites out there on training periodization etc which will explain this much more clearly than I can, I am just trying to put it simply and in laymans terms!
Generally, many people will just look on the internet or ask a club mate, or other racer what sessions they do then go and do them. This means they will likely go away doing some combination of 2x20 min threshold efforts, 6x3 min VO2 max efforts, some shorter high intensity efforts, maybe a long ride on the weekend etc, all classic sessions that most people do some version of. All good workouts in their own right. BUT, what they won't consider is, the purpose of each session, if they should they be doing it in the 1st place (are they at a stage they can take the load? Is it a session that will benefit their discipline? e.g. a good session for a track sprinter won't be a good session for a time triallist), when they should be doing each session (I mean both short term, as in where in the week they should be doing it, and long term, i,e. when in the season they should be doing it), how each session will subsequently effect their ability to complete other sessions in the week and loads of other things.
When I talk about training composition, what I mean is really answering these questions (and others) and piecing together your training accordingly, i.e. choosing the right sessions to suit your aims and working out when to do them, both long and short term.
A couple of examples.
Short Term:
You might have decided on 3 key sessions in a week (you've chosen your sessions), say a VO2 max session, a threshold session and a tempo session. You will want to do them in an order that lets you complete these key sessions to the required intensity, for example, you may choose to do the VO2 max session the day after a rest day, so you are fresh and can hit the highest numbers, then do the threshold session the day after, since you should still be able to hit the required numbers, even carrying a little fatigue, however, if you do the threshold session the day after a rest and follow it with a VO2 max session the next day, your top end power will be compromised and chances are your final few reps will be below the intensity required.
Long Term:
Long term, training composition mostly refer to what type of session you give emphasis at different times in the year. For example should you be doing VO2 max intervals in December when you are not racing until March? Maybe one session every few weeks would be good but the emphasis will not be on this kind of work instead the emphasis will be on something steadier (but not pissing about at 10 mph), i.e. 60 min sweetspot efforts thus altering the composition of your training in favour of longer less intense efforts, as you approach the racing season you would make your training more and more race like i.e. emphasising efforts that simulate the efforts you will be doing in your races i.e. the composition will change from mostly steady longer efforts with a bit of high intensity, to mostly higher intensity work and less long efforts, you would probably also reduce volume, adding in more rest.
Peter Armstrong
Über Member
Boomshakalaka!
Thank you for that, kind of what I’m doing now. (Ish but with more spriting)
“I probs do about 6 hour training week, If I feel fresh I mite say... blast some hill sprints, (VO2 MAX SESSION) the next day I mite do 10 mile as fast as I can, no Sprints, (THRESHOLD SESSION) next day maybe easy with some flat random sprints thrown in(TEMP SESSION). Then at weekend a good clud ride or race. Basicly no structure just going off what I feel like doing and mixing it up. But no base miles for sure, Sufferfest HITT videos over winter pushed me from sportives to crit racing.”
And seen as tho I’m just doing crits at the mo, I only have short term goals.
Thank you for that, kind of what I’m doing now. (Ish but with more spriting)
“I probs do about 6 hour training week, If I feel fresh I mite say... blast some hill sprints, (VO2 MAX SESSION) the next day I mite do 10 mile as fast as I can, no Sprints, (THRESHOLD SESSION) next day maybe easy with some flat random sprints thrown in(TEMP SESSION). Then at weekend a good clud ride or race. Basicly no structure just going off what I feel like doing and mixing it up. But no base miles for sure, Sufferfest HITT videos over winter pushed me from sportives to crit racing.”
And seen as tho I’m just doing crits at the mo, I only have short term goals.
OP
OP
JasonHolder
on youtube. learning to be a gent
Youre a great poster on here rob3rt. Thanks for taking the time and adding value!
personally as a beginner again, I'll speak as a beginner. The classic 2x20 etc you think a club member would recommend is absolutely right, good workouts depending on what youre after Too. however my body is not ready for that, and I wouldn't expect any other begginers to be half as ready.
Rob3rt
Man or Moose!
- Location
- Manchester
Youre a great poster on here rob3rt. Thanks for taking the time and adding value!
A complete beginner might not want to undergo a full 2x20 minute effort at threshold, however most people could ride at a sustainably hard pace (the sort of pace where you can speak only a few words at a time, as a crude measure) for 20 minutes.
Then there are also ways to progress to a full 2x20 threshold effort, such as either doing shorter efforts (2x10 mins, 3x7 minutes etc) and increasing the number of reps and/or increasing the duration of each rep (ideally a combination of both) until a full session can be completed. Or they could do it at a reduced intensity. Maybe 20 minutes at tempo then keep increasing the duration until they can go an hour, then up intensity and do 2 lots of 20 minutes at Sweetspot instead of the hour at tempo etc.
These methods are at least equally as effective, if not more so, especially if speed is of concern and do not take up huge amounts of time.
50000tears
Senior Member
- Location
- Weymouth, Dorset
I will chip in as I can class myself as a beginner as defined by Jason. I have only been cycling since late June last year and only training since late September.
In September I signed up for an epic sportive which I didn't just want to complete but do so at a good average speed. As one of those time limited cyclists doing lots of long rides was never an option so I had to find the best way to get as fit as I could with the time available.
I did feel that there was a need to do longer rides when I could, but this was partly for gaining a training base and partly so that I could build up my distance in prep for the sportive. I still believe that having a good number of miles in the legs is the best base for building on when you do then move on to do HIIT work.
Training through the winter, with all the wet weather we had, did mean that interval work made up a lot of my training. At first this frustrated me until I quickly realised that I was able to work far harder in these efforts than I ever could on the road. The intervals were often very very tough to get through and there were a few I was unable to complete. And as Robert pointed out almost all of them would involve increasing the interval length over the weeks. I know from my progress that these sessions gave a big bang for the time spent.
Over a 7 month period my training was probably 60% or thereabouts interval work with 40% on the road of which about half of that were long steady miles. The rest were 20-30 mile efforts at tempo or slightly faster. Not going to suggest that my training was always optimal but I know that my fitness and efforts I can do on a bike now are a world away from what I could do just 6 months ago. Interestingly enough, although I can say with certainty that HIIT work has played a huge roll in this, I am ironically in a purely base building phase of training again, in an attempt to better condition my legs as well as further improve fitness, where I am doing 150 miles+ of mostly tempo riding per week but some at level 2. This is just for a few weeks though then I will switch back to a chunk of interval type training.
My personal conclusion is that HIIT without a base of good general fitness is progress built on shifting sand where it all could collapse at any time. But also that nothing but long steady miles is both a waste of time and far from optimal in terms of progression.
In September I signed up for an epic sportive which I didn't just want to complete but do so at a good average speed. As one of those time limited cyclists doing lots of long rides was never an option so I had to find the best way to get as fit as I could with the time available.
I did feel that there was a need to do longer rides when I could, but this was partly for gaining a training base and partly so that I could build up my distance in prep for the sportive. I still believe that having a good number of miles in the legs is the best base for building on when you do then move on to do HIIT work.
Training through the winter, with all the wet weather we had, did mean that interval work made up a lot of my training. At first this frustrated me until I quickly realised that I was able to work far harder in these efforts than I ever could on the road. The intervals were often very very tough to get through and there were a few I was unable to complete. And as Robert pointed out almost all of them would involve increasing the interval length over the weeks. I know from my progress that these sessions gave a big bang for the time spent.
Over a 7 month period my training was probably 60% or thereabouts interval work with 40% on the road of which about half of that were long steady miles. The rest were 20-30 mile efforts at tempo or slightly faster. Not going to suggest that my training was always optimal but I know that my fitness and efforts I can do on a bike now are a world away from what I could do just 6 months ago. Interestingly enough, although I can say with certainty that HIIT work has played a huge roll in this, I am ironically in a purely base building phase of training again, in an attempt to better condition my legs as well as further improve fitness, where I am doing 150 miles+ of mostly tempo riding per week but some at level 2. This is just for a few weeks though then I will switch back to a chunk of interval type training.
My personal conclusion is that HIIT without a base of good general fitness is progress built on shifting sand where it all could collapse at any time. But also that nothing but long steady miles is both a waste of time and far from optimal in terms of progression.
