This happen to you ?

[Kell]

For the ebike debate. In the UK at least most of the delivery rider ebikes (that I see in London) are of the illegal type. Being that they're not electrically assisted, they're electric powered.

The rules here are that the motor can only assist you, and only up to 15.5mph. There are probably others, but those two are the main ones that you need to comply with. Oh, and that it has to be approved.

The issues with the non-legal ones are multiple.

• They're not allowed on most forms of public transport as there are multiple reports of batteries spontaneously combusting.
• The riders may or may not have passed their driving test - which isn't so bad at 15mph, but if they're tanking along at 30mph, it's good to know when you need to watch out for stuff.
• The kits tend to be fitted to bikes that shouldn't even be on the road as pedal powered, let alone when they're capable of 30mph or more. Many are on the cheapest possible MTBs from 20 or 30 years ago.
• They're not registered and they're ridden by idiots who, because they're not registered, break all the rules with no repercussion.
• They're also used a lot by phone thieves as they're almost impossible to catch and, because they're not registered (see above) won't png any ANPR cameras and are therefore almost impossible to trace.

Very occasionally, someone will have their illegal bike taken from them by the police, but I think it's pretty rare.

Unlike the very blinkered approach to ebikes mentioned above, I think they're a great idea so long as they are the EAPC (Electrially Assisted Pedal Cycle) variety. The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. The more bikes on the road, the more people will experience what it's like to feel that vulnerable and hopefully have more empathy and wherewithal when they get in a car.

My wife has an ebike and it's a great leveller. Meaning we can both go out together and I don't have to wait around too much for her even though I'm on a normal bike. She never waits for me on the hills though.

I have ridden her bike before and the 'ease' at which you ride it depends on your mentality to some degree. Going up hill, for instance is where I struggle (as I'm a fat knacker). The hill I have on my commute is still just as much of a struggle to go up, as I still put the same effort in, but benefit from the extra watts of the motor, so it takes less time. Ultimately that makes it 'easier' because it takes 5 minutes of effort rather than 7, but in terms of actual effort I put in, it's not any easier on my heart rate (for instance).

As Greg LeMond said "It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster".

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

For the ebike debate. In the UK at least most of the delivery rider ebikes (that I see in London) are of the illegal type. Being that they're not electrically assisted, they're electric powered.

The rules here are that the motor can only assist you, and only up to 15.5mph. There are probably others, but those two are the main ones that you need to comply with. Oh, and that it has to be approved.

The issues with the non-legal ones are multiple.

• They're not allowed on most forms of public transport as there are multiple reports of batteries spontaneously combusting.
• The riders may or may not have passed their driving test - which isn't so bad at 15mph, but if they're tanking along at 30mph, it's good to know when you need to watch out for stuff.
• The kits tend to be fitted to bikes that shouldn't even be on the road as pedal powered, let alone when they're capable of 30mph or more. Many are on the cheapest possible MTBs from 20 or 30 years ago.
• They're not registered and they're ridden by idiots who, because they're not registered, break all the rules with no repercussion.
• They're also used a lot by phone thieves as they're almost impossible to catch and, because they're not registered (see above) won't png any ANPR cameras and are therefore almost impossible to trace.

Very occasionally, someone will have their illegal bike taken from them by the police, but I think it's pretty rare.

Unlike the very blinkered approach to ebikes mentioned above, I think they're a great idea so long as they are the EAPC (Electrially Assisted Pedal Cycle) variety. The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. The more bikes on the road, the more people will experience what it's like to feel that vulnerable and hopefully have more empathy and wherewithal when they get in a car.

My wife has an ebike and it's a great leveller. Meaning we can both go out together and I don't have to wait around too much for her even though I'm on a normal bike. She never waits for me on the hills though.

I have ridden her bike before and the 'ease' at which you ride it depends on your mentality to some degree. Going up hill, for instance is where I struggle (as I'm a fat knacker). The hill I have on my commute is still just as much of a struggle to go up, as I still put the same effort in, but benefit from the extra watts of the motor, so it takes less time. Ultimately that makes it 'easier' because it takes 5 minutes of effort rather than 7, but in terms of actual effort I put in, it's not any easier on my heart rate (for instance).

As Greg LeMond said "It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster".

Good description of riding a proper ebike (EPAC)

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Ultimately that makes it 'easier' because it takes 5 minutes of effort rather than 7

Should be a lot less, as the E-Bike will throw in an extra 250 watts, combined with your 250 watts, that’s a hefty 500 watts powering you up the hills. Even the mighty Tadej Pogafar has a FTP of only 415 watts. About twice as fast for a typical rider. More than twice as fast for a more casual rider who doesn’t train. Thus half the time, maybe less than half.

 

[Binky]

Your group must be nigh on geriatric if someone on an ebike is stealing segments off them. The comment betrays your lack of knowledge.

The moment you hit 15.5 mph and the motor cuts out they're incredibly hard work, what with the extra mass and drag from the motor.

The notion that EPAC riders go about buring off other riders is largely nonsense. Even a below average rider on a moderately sporty bike would have little difficulty running rings around an EPAC.

Hmm no. Your comment betrays YOUR lack of knowledge. Plenty of climbs that even a pro would struggle to match an ebike so what chance do mere mortals have.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Hmm no. Your comment betrays YOUR lack of knowledge. Plenty of climbs that even a pro would struggle to match an ebike so what chance do mere mortals have.

certainly on some climbs - but it depends on the gradient

a climb where the EPAC can just about maintain 15 mph then they have an advantage - but that would require a steepish but not-too-steep climb

anything higher and the EPAC will have an advantage - but not enough to outweigh a good road cyclist who rides a lot

up a steep hill the road bike rider would probably have a big advanteg in spite of the EPAC having the motor
unless the EPAC rider rides up hills a lot and has the fitness and muscle power to do it

The illegal ones - well you might as well use a Suzuki 250cc (or whatever) - they are a totally different thing

I generally find that a decent road bike rider will always pass me on a decent road - whatever the speepness
main advantage I have is downhill where the extra weight (of the bike !!!) helps unless the other rider is down low to get an aero advantage

 

[Binky]

On the flat, road bike wins. Downhill depends on riders. Uphill again depends upon gradient but there are a lot of climbs which anyone riding at say 12mph will get KOM. So ebike can do this whereas leg power may not.
As with anything "it depends" but my point was to blanket state only geriatic riders get segments taken by an ebike is completely wrong.

Otherwise ebikes would never be taking KOMs whereas it happens a lot.

 

[biggs682]

@bro

So lately ,because life's circumstances dictate, I only ride a Brompton.
But, people who obviously don't cycle, think it's an "E-bike" and all too frequently ask stupid questions. " how fast does it go ?" " how far does it go?" Does anyone else who usually rides a folder get this crap ?

Never had any comments like this when out on my Giant Halfway folding bike

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

On the flat, road bike wins. Downhill depends on riders. Uphill again depends upon gradient but there are a lot of climbs which anyone riding at say 12mph will get KOM. So ebike can do this whereas leg power may not.
As with anything "it depends" but my point was to blanket state only geriatic riders get segments taken by an ebike is completely wrong.

Otherwise ebikes would never be taking KOMs whereas it happens a lot.

Even on the highest setting my ebike requires a lot of leg power to get up decent hills

OK - I am not all that fit and as I ride mostly on fairly flat terrain even if I ride several times a week I don;t develop climbing muscles much

but I go pretty slow if I have to climb a big hill
I reckon a decent rider on a decent road bike would pass me

clearly I have the motor power to help - but it really does not help as much as people think
it does mean that I can ride up hill that I otherwise would have to walk up
but that is me
a good rider would be able to ride up them

this is based on the sort of hills I could get up in my 20s on my Peugeot - and that was no racing bike in spit of the drops and 10 gears!

 

[Kell]

Should be a lot less, as the E-Bike will throw in an extra 250 watts, combined with your 250 watts, that’s a hefty 500 watts powering you up the hills. Even the mighty Tadej Pogafar has a FTP of only 415 watts. About twice as fast for a typical rider. More than twice as fast for a more casual rider who doesn’t train. Thus half the time, maybe less than half.

The 7 minutes to 5 minutes might have been a bit of a guess. And it's not that simplistic anyway as the way to compare riders is by their Watts per kg figure.

At my fittest I was pushing an FTP of around 300, but I was around 95kg. Thanks to various factors like age, Covid, pneumonia, my FTP has dropped to near 220 and my weight gone up to around 110kg. Going from 3.1 w/kg to 2 w/kg. I know that my fastest time up that hill when I was fitter and lighter isn't 2/3 rds of my normal time.

That's partly because the FTP figure is not what you push out for the entirety of a ride unless you're a pro. When I did the Brompton World Cup in 2018, my power output over the ride was 240w for 11km at around 19mph average speed. To get that 240w figure, I reckon I was pushing that FTP of 300w.

My wife's ebike is a Cannondale Quick Neo SL2 and that does have a 250 watt motor. But it doesn't make me twice as quick.

This isn't an exact comparison, but here's a route I rode on her bike which includes the hill.

Here's a similar route (different start points) on my Brompton.

Facts and figures.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

But it doesn't make me twice as quick.

Well it won’t as you have aerodynamic drag and gravity with rolling resistance. The aerodynamic drag is not linear.

Let’s say a 95kg rider on 12kg bike puts out 220 watts on a 5% hill, that’ll get them up to 7.8 mph. Now put them on a 20kg e-bike that adds 250 watts to their own power, that will get you up to 14.2 mph For same effort.

Now make the hill 2 miles long, takes 15 mins 23 seconds under own effort, and 8 mins 27 seconds on E bike.

 

[Kell]

Theory’s all well and good. But as those two journeys are pretty much identical (one with a Brompton and one with an e-bike) and the figures are certainly not the worlds apart that you’re showing.

Less than 3mph quicker, virtually identical HR figures. Similar calories.

The hill in question is half a mile long and is a cat 4 on Strava. I normally go up it at around 4-4.5 mph.

It would have been a good comparison with both rides being on Strava but as I’d marked the ebike one as ebike, it doesn’t break it down into segments so I can’t separate the hill from the overall ride.