The new improved Lance Armstrong discussion thread.*

[smutchin]

I haven't read Hamilton's book yet but the abstracts that have been published suggest that he was doping before he joined Armstrong/USPS rather than as a result of joining him.

M'colleague got a copy in the post this morning and I started it over lunch. It's a good read so far...

*****SPOILERS*****
According to Hamilton's version of events, both he and the team were clean when it formed as Montgomery-Bell at the end of 1994. He was a wide-eyed, idealistic neo-pro at the time, and the team was under the leadership of Eddie Borysewicz (who was anti-doping despite having previously been involved in a blood-doping scandal at the 84 Olympics). USPS became headline sponsor in 1996 and the team was still being run clean at the time (which doesn't necessarily mean individual riders weren't doping under their own auspices, of course). After a disastrous 96 season, Johnny Weltz was made DS at the start of the 97 season, and Pedro Celaya joined as team doctor, along with several experienced pros, who he hints were already doping. This is the point when USPS started systematic doping. Hamilton himself started doping in April 97, shortly after Liege-Bastogne-Liege.

I had to stop reading and get back to work, but the next chapter starts with the line: "When I heard Lance was joining Postal for the 1998 season, I was excited and nervous..."

I think it's about to get very interesting!

d.

 

[lukesdad]

...any sign of the evidence yet ?

 

[smutchin]

...any sign of the evidence yet ?

He talks about Hincapie storing EPO in the fridge in their shared flat, and seeing teammates being handed white bags, which he presumes to be full of EPO. He also talks about Riis flying past him up mountains at superhuman speed. He doesn't accuse everyone though - he says Andy Hampsten was always clean, and Scott Mercier quit cycling rather than become a doper.

So to answer your question... it depends what you consider "evidence", which is the kind of question that could easily generate 100 pages of discussion without reaching any firm conclusions...

d.

 

[smutchin]

More interesting background reading: http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/08/news/road/old-doping-accusations-lead-to-altercation_82154

Hamilton claims in the book that he doesn't remember the incident when he and Jemison are supposed to have approched Prentice Steffen in 1996 to ask about EPO. He admits it probably happened but that it was most likely Jemison who was after the juice and he was just there to offer moral support.

It's written in a way that's clearly meant to make you sympathetic to Hamilton but I'm trying not to let that cloud my judgment.

d.

 

[lukesdad]

He talks about Hincapie storing EPO in the fridge in their shared flat, and seeing teammates being handed white bags, which he presumes to be full of EPO. He also talks about Riis flying past him up mountains at superhuman speed. He doesn't accuse everyone though - he says Andy Hampsten was always clean, and Scott Mercier quit cycling rather than become a doper.

So to answer your question... it depends what you consider "evidence", which is the kind of question that could easily generate 100 pages of discussion without reaching any firm conclusions...

d.

At the UCI !

 

[Red Light]

M'colleague got a copy in the post this morning and I started it over lunch. It's a good read so far...

*****SPOILERS*****
According to Hamilton's version of events, both he and the team were clean when it formed as Montgomery-Bell at the end of 1994. He was a wide-eyed, idealistic neo-pro at the time, and the team was under the leadership of Eddie Borysewicz (who was anti-doping despite having previously been involved in a blood-doping scandal at the 84 Olympics). USPS became headline sponsor in 1996 and the team was still being run clean at the time (which doesn't necessarily mean individual riders weren't doping under their own auspices, of course). After a disastrous 96 season, Johnny Weltz was made DS at the start of the 97 season, and Pedro Celaya joined as team doctor, along with several experienced pros, who he hints were already doping. This is the point when USPS started systematic doping. Hamilton himself started doping in April 97, shortly after Liege-Bastogne-Liege.

I had to stop reading and get back to work, but the next chapter starts with the line: "When I heard Lance was joining Postal for the 1998 season, I was excited and nervous..."

I think it's about to get very interesting!

d.

So the indications are that the team and Hamilton were already well into doping while Lance was undergoing cancer therapy and well before he joined the team as I suspected from the abstracts. After all if Hamilton had known Armstrong doped and was into organised doping he would have asked him in Spain where the Po was, not if he had any.

And judging from the other "I need it for a friend" story that he forgot, Hamilton must have been well into it in 1996, not as a result of being corrupted by the team in 1997. My advice to people who are going to be cross examined in Court is to always stick to the truth no matter how uncomfortable or inconvenient it is because the truth is internally self consistent while made up stories almost never are. It only requires one loose end to be left hanging in a made up story and suddently the whole thing starts unravelling at an alarming rate.

 

[Red Light]

...any sign of the evidence yet ?

I hadn't spotted this story before - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19413613 - and wonder if that is partly behind the hold up by making USADA ultra careful about what they release.

 

[smutchin]

So the indications are that the team and Hamilton were already well into doping while Lance was undergoing cancer therapy and well before he joined the team as I suspected from the abstracts.

There are also strong indications that Lance was already well into doping while he was at Motorola, pre-cancer.

Hamilton may or may not be telling the whole truth about when and how he got into doping himself, but that has no direct bearing on the evidence relating to Lance's doping - unless your thinking is along the lines of "some of it is lies, therefore all of it must be lies".

d.

 

[asterix]

Hamilton admits his misdeeds and says that LA is currently doing what he himself did and lying about cycling 'clean'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/hardtalk/9750759.stm

For Armstrong to suggest that 10 of his former team-mates have been corrupted into agreeing to testify against him beggars belief IMO. The guy is simply not worth defending since he won't defend himself and I speak as someone who respected him and believed that he did not dope. Unfortunately my illusion is shattered. If Armstrong does care about cycling he should defend his corner or admit he doped.

 

[Noodley]

There is unlikely to be much by way of anything worth reading here due to the inactivity of the mods in dealing with the trolls, who have won out as the main contributors with anything sensible to say have vacated the room.

 

[Red Light]

There are also strong indications that Lance was already well into doping while he was at Motorola, pre-cancer.

Hamilton may or may not be telling the whole truth about when and how he got into doping himself, but that has no direct bearing on the evidence relating to Lance's doping - unless your thinking is along the lines of "some of it is lies, therefore all of it must be lies".

d.

Armstrong may well have been but there would need to be evidence of that beyond that of the Andreus claims from way back.

On Hamilton the guy has made a big thing about how this is the truth that is now setting him free. If you then find that parts of it are not the truth, especially about how and when he got involved in doping then you have to question which parts of the rest of the book are the truth and which are also being spun for appearances. Doesn't say its all lies, just you have to be very careful about what you take as being true. If you've ever sat through Court cross examinations you will usually find if the witness has been shown to be lying about one part of their testimony, then the whole of their testimony is called into question.

 

[Red Light]

Hamilton admits his misdeeds and says that LA is currently doing what he himself did and lying about cycling 'clean'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/hardtalk/9750759.stm

For Armstrong to suggest that 10 of his former team-mates have been corrupted into agreeing to testify against him beggars belief IMO. The guy is simply not worth defending since he won't defend himself and I speak as someone who respected him and believed that he did not dope. Unfortunately my illusion is shattered. If Armstrong does care about cycling he should defend his corner or admit he doped.

Do we know who those "10 former team mates" are yet? It depends very much who they are and under what conditions they gave their testimony and whether five of them are Hamilton, Landis, Andreu, Anderson and O'Reilly. USADA have already gone public with "tell us the what we want to hear and we'll give you a much lighter penalty" with Armstrong and if the testimony was given under those conditions it would IMO be questionable. No honour among thieves and all that.

 

[ufkacbln]

Who is it 'usually dismissed' by? It's unpopular with the UCI hierarchy for obvious reasons, but WADA has called for exactly this honest assessment and you will find that almost everyone here supports it.

That would refer to individuals on the locked threads, and I don't think that would be appropriate here.

 

[fossyant]

Behave - you are entitled to your own opinions but don't drag the thread down again folks - not 'improved much'.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

It's like supervising a bunch of 25 or more 5-6 year old boys !

 

[smutchin]

Do we know who those "10 former team mates" are yet? It depends very much who they are and under what conditions they gave their testimony and whether five of them are Hamilton, Landis, Andreu, Anderson and O'Reilly.

After reading Tyler's book, the one I'd be really interested to hear from is Kevin Livingston.

d.