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philipbh

Spectral Cyclist
Location
Out the back
Isn't this all academic anyway?

Judge Sparks rules that his court has no jurisdiction over the way a sport is run or its rules enforced

Due process has been promised

Both parties should go to arbitration anyway

LA declines arbitration and the rest we "know"
 
Painting a view of Lance believers as heretics being martyred would be true if they came up with any pro-lance evidence. Quite frankly the pro-lance stuff has got weaker and weaker to the point of being laughable so its got the correct treatment from all concerned.

There you go again reframing it as a pro or anti Lance belief issue. You don't have to be pro-Lance to question whether a proper and fair process has been followed to convict him and therefore whether the conviction is sound. There are plenty of people that Courts rule to be not guilty because proper process was not followed and a conviction would be unsound, even though the probability is that the accused did commit the offence. And plenty of the most famous miscarriages of justice in this country have been where that was not followed.

And if you have been reading this thread at all you will see that USADA have completely blanked out for example in Appendix 2 the sworn statement backed up by his 279 pages of medical notes by his oncologist saying that he never asked Lance about his taking PEMs, there is nothing in his notes recording that he was asked and what his reply was and that if such a question had been asked it would have, as a matter of course, have been recorded in his medical notes by whichever doctor had asked the question. Nor his oncologists sworn affidavit that says his bloods were routinely measured as part of his post cancer monitoring until late 2001 and that there was no evidence from them of EPO use which would have been detectable (those same bloods having been used to monitor his response to EPO injections as part of his cancer treatment). Nor the sworn affidavits from Tygart and Catlin that certainly up to 2001 they had never had an adverse finding against Armstrong and that if he had used EPO they would have detected it. Now I am quite happy that having presented all the evidence it is argued that on balance its in favour of his having doped. But to miss out all the evidence against doping, including USADA's own sworn evidence from its CEO, just smacks of polemic not a balanced judgement. And that again, just for the avoidance of doubt, is not for pro-Lance purposes but to illustrate the severe motives and process problems that exist.
 
Isn't this all academic anyway?

Judge Sparks rules that his court has no jurisdiction over the way a sport is run or its rules enforced

Due process has been promised

Both parties should go to arbitration anyway

LA declines arbitration and the rest we "know"

No, he said he was giving USADA the benefit of the doubt having been given assurances that they would now do things they had previously refused to do like giving the defendant access to the evidence against them with sufficient time to prepare their defence. But he clearly said that if they didn't Armstrong could bring it back to his Court and USADA would not like the outcome. So I'm letting this go for now but I will be watching.

The result of Armstrong not going to arbitration though is unfortunately USADA have become investigator, prosecutor and judge. In the legal system we separate out those three roles very clearly because of the enormous inherent conflicts of interest and probability of miscarriages of justice. It should have been that USADA did not make a ruling but put its prosecution case in front of UCI or CAS for a ruling so prosecution and judgement roles were clearly separated.
 

philipbh

Spectral Cyclist
Location
Out the back
Nor his oncologists sworn affidavit that says his bloods were routinely measured as part of his post cancer monitoring until late 2001 and that there was no evidence from them of EPO use which would have been detectable (those same bloods having been used to monitor his response to EPO injections as part of his cancer treatment).

The interesting question for me is the use of the word routine and or regular as if to connote a frequency that would have detected abnormal use of EPO (therapeutic or otherwise)

From the Nicholls affidavit, December 2005

"Following successful treatment of his cancer in 1996 I continued to check Lance
Armstrong's blood levels on a regular basis from January 1997 to October 2001. Initially, he had
regular evaluation every several months for the first year, every four months in the second year
and twice yearly to 2001"

So I don't doubt that Dr Nicholls was "familiar" with LA's blood levels - the frequency of his testing would enable possible avoidance of anything irregular in the levels anyway - so his statement has less value (IMO) or allows reasonable doubt to creep in to any cross examination
 

DogTired

Über Member
There you go again reframing it as a pro or anti Lance belief issue. You don't have to be pro-Lance to question whether a proper and fair process has been followed to convict him and therefore whether the conviction is sound. There are plenty of people that Courts rule to be not guilty because proper process was not followed and a conviction would be unsound, even though the probability is that the accused did commit the offence. And plenty of the most famous miscarriages of justice in this country have been where that was not followed.

And if you have been reading this thread at all you will see that USADA have completely blanked out for example in Appendix 2 the sworn statement backed up by his 279 pages of medical notes by his oncologist saying that he never asked Lance about his taking PEMs, there is nothing in his notes recording that he was asked and what his reply was and that if such a question had been asked it would have, as a matter of course, have been recorded in his medical notes by whichever doctor had asked the question. Nor his oncologists sworn affidavit that says his bloods were routinely measured as part of his post cancer monitoring until late 2001 and that there was no evidence from them of EPO use which would have been detectable (those same bloods having been used to monitor his response to EPO injections as part of his cancer treatment). Nor the sworn affidavits from Tygart and Catlin that certainly up to 2001 they had never had an adverse finding against Armstrong and that if he had used EPO they would have detected it. Now I am quite happy that having presented all the evidence it is argued that on balance its in favour of his having doped. But to miss out all the evidence against doping, including USADA's own sworn evidence from its CEO, just smacks of polemic not a balanced judgement. And that again, just for the avoidance of doubt, is not for pro-Lance purposes but to illustrate the severe motives and process problems that exist.

I quoted the BBC reporter for evidence of 'belief'. When any party ignore the balance of probabilities of the evidence (either way) then its belief.

Its clear from multiple witness statements that LA admitted taking PEDs to a Doctor. They've also stated that it was neither Craig Nicholls or Scott Shapiro but a different one. So Nichols' statement is entirely consistent with a Dr (he not being him) asking LA and him revealing that he took PEDs.

Nichols also stated that it would be unusual to ask if LA took PEDs. This is odd as your patient is a young man, a professional athelete, with testicular cancer which is linked clearly with steroid use. Other oncologists disagree that you wouldnt ask this. Seems common sense, doesnt it?

As for his comments on LA's blood tests and use of EPO, they're quite frankly risible. He never states he tested for artificial EPO. He would be testing for cancer markers, not doping products. He doesnt mention the sensitivity of the tests. He doesnt mention how quickly hematocrit levels fall. He doesnt say if LA was tested out of season. It never seemed to cross his mind why cyclists are tested ON THE DAY, not once at the end of the race. Because not long after there's no evidence. Glow-time - they were expert at understanding and minimising this. His testimony is fundamentally and fatally flawed in terms of giving LA a clean bill of drug-free health.
 

PpPete

Legendary Member
Location
Chandler's Ford
The result of Armstrong not going to arbitration though is unfortunately USADA have become investigator, prosecutor and judge.
The converse is also true.
But you can't say USADA is at fault because LA chose not to contest the charges

In the legal system we separate out those three roles very clearly because of the enormous inherent conflicts of interest and probability of miscarriages of justice. It should have been that USADA did not make a ruling but put its prosecution case in front of UCI or CAS for a ruling so prosecution and judgement roles were clearly separated.
And so it would have done, had not LA realised his number was finally up.
 

philipbh

Spectral Cyclist
Location
Out the back
Meanwhile, back at the Fattoria - Dr Ferrari denies all knowledge

http://www.gazzetta.it/openxlink-4.shtml?http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=123
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Eh? Baying? 'We' wished for a clean sport free of cheating and the rigorous enforcement of the rules by the governing authorities. Don't blame us for wrecking our beloved sport blame the f***ing cheats!
"Don't blame us for wrecking our beloved sport blame the f***king cheats and the craven governing authorities!" surely?
 
OP
OP
mickle

mickle

innit
That's a noble motive. Judge Sparks indicated he thought they were acting under "less noble motives".

Less noble motives? Such as, like what, for instance?

It seems clear to me that what USADA (an anti-drug agency) have done is exposed Armstrong as the (drug) cheat he undoubtedly is and imposed sanctions. This outcome is entirely consistent with 'Preserving the Integrity of Competition'. What other possible (secret, presumably) motivation could they possibly have had?



 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
[QUOTE 2108201, member: 45"]He cheated. Everyone knows that beyond a doubt.

What's with the sycophantic bleating?[/quote]
He cheated. Everyone knows that on the balance of probability. But it doesn't matter because, in effect, he pleaded no contest.

Meanwhile Vino has a new job riding a desk at Astana, hmmm who used to ride with them and dope? And Vino's name is on a little list....
 
As for his comments on LA's blood tests and use of EPO, they're quite frankly risible. He never states he tested for artificial EPO. He would be testing for cancer markers, not doping products.

Perhaps you should re-read his testimony. They test the blood for much more than cancer markers including white and red blood cell counts, haemocrit etc because they use the tests to monitor the response of the blood to therapeutic EPO used to counter the blood based side effects of chemo. Much like the current blood passport measurements. You also missed out the bit from your speculation where he said:

Had Lance Armstrong been using EPO to enhance his cycling performance, I would have likely identified differences in his blood levels. After all, I had treated him and administered EPO during his treatment years when he was not cycling between October 1996 and January 1997 and was very familiar with his blood levels.

You also forget Mr Tygarts testimony that in all the blood tests USADA had conducted they did not have one adverse finding. Why do you think that was not mentioned in the USADA file? It can hardly be because they didn't know about it because it was sworn and signed by Travis himself.
 
The converse is also true.
But you can't say USADA is at fault because LA chose not to contest the charges


And so it would have done, had not LA realised his number was finally up.

The system that allows them to become prosecutor, judge and jury is at fault. Good governance should never allow that situation to arise. If they are the investigator/prosecutor then the judgement on their case should be made by someone independent (after all which author is going to admit that the case they've written is rubbish). As it was, although their right to do so was contested, they first announced their judgement and punishment and then released their prosecution case much added to from when they announced their judgement. Again bad process. It smacks of we've decided you are guilty but just need some time to work out why you are. And again please don't pull it back to belief in whether he is guilty or not being the issue. Its about whether the processes that were followed were proper or not.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
The system that allows them to become prosecutor, judge and jury is at fault. Good governance should never allow that situation to arise. If they are the investigator/prosecutor then the judgement on their case should be made by someone independent (after all which author is going to admit that the case they've written is rubbish). As it was, although their right to do so was contested, they first announced their judgement and punishment and then released their prosecution case much added to from when they announced their judgement. Again bad process. It smacks of we've decided you are guilty but just need some time to work out why you are. And again please don't pull it back to belief in whether he is guilty or not being the issue. Its about whether the processes that were followed were proper or not.
That's a fair summary of what happened.

But it doesn't matter because LA chose not to contest ANYTHING. Not the findings. Not the peremptory judgement. Not the abuse of protest. Not the lousy evidence preparation. Not a thing. He just raised his hands in the sure and certain knowledge that this meant "OK I lose and you win."

Now why would an innocent man, with the resources and public profile of LA, and with everything that he stood, and still stands, to lose do that if he didn't dope?
 
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