The LCC "Go Dutch" campaign

[style over speed]

I'm new to cycling and it seems to me that the sentiments expressed in this blog typified by Delzzeq when he says "I suspect that this is a putsch by a bunch of self-publicising self-gratification artists, and that sense will prevail..." - is what is wrong.

For years it seems to me London cyclists have been divided over whether to segregate or not segregate but how much has this in-fighting actually helped in practical terms? How far, for example, has London come since the 80s or 90s if you are a cyclist?

Not very far is the answer -only about 2% of the population cycle in a city that is largely flat - and the reason for this is that it is mostly down to people like Delzzeq who want to keep it the way that it is.

This is not good enough and I for one think the Go Dutch Campaign is a fantastic idea. It is about reaching the latent majority who do actually want to get out on their bikes but consider the idea of cycling in London too dangerous. For me it is about changing the mentality and normalising cycling and for that you have to start somewhere. Picking holes in the idea on a blog from your bedroom is a blind cul-de-sac.

^ the Go Dutch campaign is exactly about this, to invite the 90% of people who don't use a bike for transport to be able use it as a safe and convenient way to get around in normal gear, at least 25% of people want to do this right away but are rightly put off by the dreadful conditions people have to contend with. Segregation is a blind alley, dutch planning only segregates where needed, not as prescription, ie only for major roads.

 

[Red Light]

I'm new to cycling and it seems to me that the sentiments expressed in this blog typified by Delzzeq when he says "I suspect that this is a putsch by a bunch of self-publicising self-gratification artists, and that sense will prevail..." - is what is wrong.

For years it seems to me London cyclists have been divided over whether to segregate or not segregate but how much has this in-fighting actually helped in practical terms? How far, for example, has London come since the 80s or 90s if you are a cyclist?

Not very far is the answer -only about 2% of the population cycle in a city that is largely flat - and the reason for this is that it is mostly down to people like Delzzeq who want to keep it the way that it is.

This is not good enough and I for one think the Go Dutch Campaign is a fantastic idea. It is about reaching the latent majority who do actually want to get out on their bikes but consider the idea of cycling in London too dangerous. For me it is about changing the mentality and normalising cycling and for that you have to start somewhere. Picking holes in the idea on a blog from your bedroom is a blind cul-de-sac.

The segregation approach has been tried in ultimate form in Stevevage, Milton Keynes & East Kilbride all of which had segregated cycle networks that go everywhere designed in from the beginning. You can't get much better than that. They have some of the lowest cycling rates in the country while Cambridge, York & Oxford have some of the highest with everyone crammed onto the same narrow roads. Build it and they will come has demonstrably failed in getting people to start cycling.

No doubt someone will be along to protest they didn't build them right but if we can't get it right in ideal circumstances after nearly a century of trying what makes you think it will be any different this time? Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Imalemon]

Cambridge, York & Oxford have some of the highest with everyone crammed onto the same narrow roads

The good news is that a determined, small minority are prepared to cycle in spite of being crammed into narrow roads, but that is not an environment the majority are prepared to expose themselves. It's not because cyclists are able to share the road with lorries and cars that they cycle, it is inspite of this but imagine how many more would cycle in a world which prioritised pedestrians and cyclists. Incidently I have lived in York and the most popular routes used are dedicated cycle paths.

Redlight has correctly identified that Stevevage, Milton Keynes & East Kilbride have not yet got it right but that is not an excuse for giving up. We are stuck in the 70s and need to move from the old world to the new...

 

[ComedyPilot]

I rode 1200km round The Netherlands in 2010, so have first-hand experience of the 'Dutch' way, and we in the UK are decades behind in attitude, culture and motivation to change. Edit:- we are told to aspire to be motorists and the sportier the car, or more expensive, the better. So it is a massive culture shock to be sat in a tin box, going nowhere in gridlock, being passed by 'gay-boy in lycra' cyclists (who don't pay road tax) and to then have to come to terms with losing, or reducing the use of your phallic status symbol is incomprehensible to a lot of cagers motorists.

 

[Flying Dodo]

The segregation approach has been tried in ultimate form in Stevevage, Milton Keynes & East Kilbride all of which had segregated cycle networks that go everywhere designed in from the beginning. You can't get much better than that. They have some of the lowest cycling rates in the country while Cambridge, York & Oxford have some of the highest with everyone crammed onto the same narrow roads. Build it and they will come has demonstrably failed in getting people to start cycling.

No doubt someone will be along to protest they didn't build them right but if we can't get it right in ideal circumstances after nearly a century of trying what makes you think it will be any different this time? Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

I've tried going on the Stevenage ones - totally useless, as:-

a) there are virtually no signposts so you don't know where you're going,
b) what signs they do have seem to only mention local estates, so not designed to get you across the town,
c) sometimes they randomly go in different directions and due to a) you end up even more lost,
d) they aren't maintained so have lots of glass in places.

On the other hand, I've also been around Milton Keynes a lot, and have seen quite a few cyclists on the Redways.

 

[Red Light]

The good news is that a determined, small minority are prepared to cycle in spite of being crammed into narrow roads, but that is not an environment the majority are prepared to expose themselves. It's not because cyclists are able to share the road with lorries and cars that they cycle, it is inspite of this but imagine how many more would cycle in a world which prioritised pedestrians and cyclists. Incidently I have lived in York and the most popular routes used are dedicated cycle paths.

Redlight has correctly identified that Stevevage, Milton Keynes & East Kilbride have not yet got it right but that is not an excuse for giving up. We are stuck in the 70s and need to move from the old world to the new...

I wouldn't call 30-35% of journeys in Cambridge being by bicycle (and that's without including the students) a "determined, small minority". Nor are the cyclists crossing the Thames at peak hours in London who are equal in number to those driving a "determined, small minority". Nor the Boris Bikers who have taken to the streets of London in great numbers despite a paucity of facilities.

But explain to me how we are going to move on from the 70's in a way that wasn't achieved in the nineties or noughties with segregated facilities like Royal College St or the Seven Stations Link in London (both dreadful examples of the segregationsists' art).

We'll build it right next time has been the un-honoured cry of segregated facility promoters since they first started and a century later its wearing thin

 

[Red Light]

I've tried going on the Stevenage ones - totally useless, as:-

a) there are virtually no signposts so you don't know where you're going,
b) what signs they do have seem to only mention local estates, so not designed to get you across the town,
c) sometimes they randomly go in different directions and due to a) you end up even more lost,
d) they aren't maintained so have lots of glass in places.

On the other hand, I've also been around Milton Keynes a lot, and have seen quite a few cyclists on the Redways.

a) there are no signposts on the estate roads either but people seem to find their way around alright. Signposts are for out-of-towners mainly, not locals.
b) local estate names will mean something to locals but not to visitors
c) only if you don't know your way around because your a visitor. But its not visitors we're trying to get cycling, its locals.
d) glass, ice, mud......are cycle facilities anywhere maintained and cleaned?

 

[Flying Dodo]

Ah, so it's local facilities for local people!!

Stupid me for trying to get to the other side of Stevenage on them.

 

[Red Light]

Ah, so it's local facilities for local people!!

Well who else would want to go there?

 

[Imalemon]

But explain to me how we are going to move on from the 70's

By getting behind campaigns like the Go Dutch campaign and not accepting the status quo.

 

[Red Light]

By getting behind campaigns like the Go Dutch campaign and not accepting the status quo.

I'll get behind it when someone can draw me a practical plan of how they are going to fit a Dutch style CROW compliant segregated facility onto a typical London street. Every time someone has been given the opportunity to do just that we end up with woefully CROW non-compliant facilities like the ones in Bloomsbury. And the reason we get that is there isn't room for a CROW compliant facility. But the promoters are so focussed on getting a segregated cycle facility that anything is acceptable no matter how bad rather than admitting its not possible and moving on to some of the other Dutch approaches that are practical like controlling traffic speed and mixing the bikes in with the cars.

 

[dellzeqq]

By getting behind campaigns like the Go Dutch campaign and not accepting the status quo.

show me the drawing........... (whoops, sorry, RL!)

and the picture of Utrecht is horrible. If anybody tries to inflict that kind of idiocy on my part of the world, they'll have me to answer to

 

[CotterPin]

I rode 1200km round The Netherlands in 2010, so have first-hand experience of the 'Dutch' way, and we in the UK are decades behind in attitude, culture and motivation to change. Edit:- we are told to aspire to be motorists and the sportier the car, or more expensive, the better. So it is a massive culture shock to be sat in a tin box, going nowhere in gridlock, being passed by 'gay-boy in lycra' cyclists (who don't pay road tax) and to then have to come to terms with losing, or reducing the use of your phallic status symbol is incomprehensible to a lot of cagers motorists.

And it is the attitude and culture we should be working on before (or indeed, if) we start attempting to build segregated facilities. Otherwise we end up with dangerously compromised facilities such as those around Tavistock Square.

It is frequently suggested that more people would cycle if there were segregated cycle lanes for them. However, I wonder what response you would get from them if you told them they would lose the parking space outside their house or local shops for that cycle lane?

Stephen

 

[theclaud]

I'll get behind it when someone can draw me a practical plan of how they are going to fit a Dutch style CROW compliant segregated facility onto a typical London street.

show me the drawing........... (whoops, sorry, RL!)

No response from Imalemon? He must be finding those drawings a bit tricky. Still, I'm sure they'll be worth the wait...

 

[dellzeqq]

The LCC is putting a lot of effort in to this 'Go Dutch' campaign. There are people within the LCC who are smart items. It would be nice if we could have some idea of what the campaign is about. RL sensibly points out that there is a lot more to cycling in Holland than cycling paths, but, to be honest, the LCC's 'Go Dutch' page isn't big on detail, and the 'principles' are so general as to be nigh-on hopeless...........

...so it is really, really difficult for people to 'get behind the campaign'

http://lcc.org.uk/pages/key-principles-full
http://s3.amazonaws.com/lcc_production_bucket/files/4097/original.pdf?1319469423