The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[GrumpyGregry]

Moleskin?

Can one obtain moleskin made from merino I wonder?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Me & Mrs F (non-helmet wearers) discussed the matter at length before sending all 3 of our kids, sans helmets, tottering off on bicycles. Now at 14, 17 & 21 they all still cycle, to school, college and work, I am struggling to think of any of their friends who cycle, anywhere, to my kids it's a normal and cheap means of transportation not something they have to "prepare" for.

Bikes should be the default choice of transport for young adults. Cheap, go anywhere, combine it with train and railcard for longer distances.... jumping on bike and pedalling off to work and play should be as natural as putting some shoes on and walking down the garden path.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

A couple of points about "modern" helmets

Original cycle helmets (as opposed to "hair nets") were a fairly thick chunk of polystyrene with the ability to absorb energy.

As design has progressed, fashion and ventilation have become a greater priority in design,at the cost of effectiveness

When you put a vent in the helmet it removes the absorptive material and reduces the amount of energy that can be absorbed. Additionally the material that is left has to be denser and stiffer to support the helmet design.

Modern helmets really compromise the basics of helmet design.

Then you get to a stage where the little material that is left is unable to (even in the denser form) support the design and a stiff uncompressible carbon fibre or other sort of material is introduced to support the design shape.

.. and all that is before you get to the other design faults such as "snag points"

Isn't it rather ironic that we have such a vociferous pro-helmet who are advocating an inferior product and not questioning the decrease in effectiveness

Could this be the reason so many modern helmets "crack" - there simply isn't enough stiff material to support the structure in and impact and the frail bars snap

Note how these random examples from a Google search have all failed at a frail cross piece in the design

Bet these were all captioned "my helmet saved my life" thobut.

When it come to the catastrophic failure mode of contemporary helmets ignorance appears to be bliss.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Yes but has Denmark got as many fat lazy bar stewards living there?

Plenty of overweight people in Denmark. Not everyone is slim and gorgeous like the denizens of central cph where I admit a certain body fascism "Greg have you put on weight?" does seem to prevail.

The other morning I cycled through Varnby, a suburb of cph and not the best address in town, at 08:00 in the morning, behind a fat bloke carting 48 cans of lager on his rack. He was also smoking a tab.

Fat people in Denmark cycle. Fat people in Denmark walk about. Seems to me Danes would think it odd if fat people in towns/cities didn't ride bikes in the same way as they would think it odd if they didn't walk about there.

Phenomenally high % of the population are committed, regular (fun) runners mind. A nation of extremes perhaps?

 

[benb]

Another example - RoSPA has shown that training children is effective. When compared with a control group of untrained children the accident rate is reduced by 50%. SO the "need" for a helmet is also reduced as the accident is less likely

And perversely, some training courses demand that the children wear helmets, meaning that some children don't get the training which, unlike helmets, is proven to reduce collisions.

 

[benb]

Helmets are almost certainly beneficial in a narrow range of low speed offs when worn by short people. Offs that replicate the forces in the tests said helmets are designed to pass.

I struggle to come up with a realistic scenario where a helmet would turn a severe head injury into a slight one, or where it would turn a death into "only" a severe head injury. It's just not plausible IMO - the forces within a helmet's design parameters are just too low, except in a tiny number of freak occurrences.

I'll happily admit they are quite effective in preventing bruises, cuts, scrapes, road rash and the like, but no one ever says "wear a helmet, it will stop you getting a small cut" they say "wear a helmet it could save your life"

 

[benb]

A couple of points about "modern" helmets

Original cycle helmets (as opposed to "hair nets") were a fairly thick chunk of polystyrene with the ability to absorb energy.

As design has progressed, fashion and ventilation have become a greater priority in design,at the cost of effectiveness

When you put a vent in the helmet it removes the absorptive material and reduces the amount of energy that can be absorbed. Additionally the material that is left has to be denser and stiffer to support the helmet design.

Modern helmets really compromise the basics of helmet design.

Then you get to a stage where the little material that is left is unable to (even in the denser form) support the design and a stiff uncompressible carbon fibre or other sort of material is introduced to support the design shape.

.. and all that is before you get to the other design faults such as "snag points"

Isn't it rather ironic that we have such a vociferous pro-helmet who are advocating an inferior product and not questioning the decrease in effectiveness

Could this be the reason so many modern helmets "crack" - there simply isn't enough stiff material to support the structure in and impact and the frail bars snap

Note how these random examples from a Google search have all failed at a frail cross piece in the design

OMG, those helmets totally saved the wearer's life, no question!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111ONEONEELEVENTYONE!

 

[Justinslow]

OMG, those helmets totally saved the wearer's life, no question!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111ONEONEELEVENTYONE!

Remember it works both ways, they just might have done.

 

[benb]

Remember it works both ways, they just might have done.

We'll never know, in individual cases like that.
What we do know is that any protective effect is undetectable in the data.
So either they do not help often enough to be detectable, because the situations where they help are so vanishingly remote, or confounding variables mean that helmeted riders are having more head injuries than non-helmeted to balance out the protective effect.

Either way, it is an indisputable fact that there are plenty of other activities with a similar (that is, very low) risk of a head injury that we don't bother wearing a helmet for, so why single out cycling for special treatment?

 

[Justinslow]

We'll never know, in individual cases like that.
What we do know is that any protective effect is undetectable in the data.
So either they do not help often enough to be detectable, because the situations where they help are so vanishingly remote, or confounding variables mean that helmeted riders are having more head injuries than non-helmeted to balance out the protective effect.

Either way, it is an indisputable fact that there are plenty of other activities with a similar (that is, very low) risk of a head injury that we don't bother wearing a helmet for, so why single out cycling for special treatment?

No idea why we do, but we do! Think it goes back to what type of cycling you do -worst case scenario such as fast mtb (proper off road) or fast road then everything below that is getting tarred with the same brush.

 

[martint235]

No idea why we do, but we do! Think it goes back to what type of cycling you do -worst case scenario such as fast mtb (proper off road) or fast road then everything below that is getting tarred with the same brush.

No "we" don't. Only the pro helmet group single out cycling for specific treatment. Everyone else seems to conduct a personal risk assessment of the activity coupled with the evidence available around safety equipment and then make a reasonable decision.

 

[Justinslow]

It is pretty clear to me why we do. It is because people like you support it.

Me and many many others.

I'll happily admit they are quite effective in preventing bruises, cuts, scrapes, road rash and the like,

Is this not a good enough reason to wear one then, why do we all seem to focus on "serious head injury"?
Why couldn't it be - "bike helmets may help prevent cuts, bruises, road rash in the event of an accident, but be aware your head will be bigger with a helmet on and you may be subject to accidents you otherwise might not have been".
That's good enough for me.

 

[martint235]

Me and many many others.


Is this not a good enough reason to wear one then, why do we all seem to focus on "serious head injury"?
Why couldn't it be - "bike helmets may help prevent cuts, bruises, road rash in the event of an accident, but be aware your head will be bigger with a helmet on and you may be subject to accidents you otherwise might not have been".
That's good enough for me.

A decent cap will help prevent cuts, road rash and scrapes. Thankfully my head doesn't bruise too much. Both of these are from my personal observations with no evidence, scientific or otherwise, to back them up. I therefore cannot recommend that anyone follows this path without their own observations/tests.

 

[shouldbeinbed]

Me and many many others.


Is this not a good enough reason to wear one then, why do we all seem to focus on "serious head injury"?
Why couldn't it be - "bike helmets may help prevent cuts, bruises, road rash in the event of an accident, but be aware your head will be bigger with a helmet on and you may be subject to accidents you otherwise might not have been".
That's good enough for me.

Its not good enough for me though, They should have on them in big red letters :NOT A SAFETY DEVICE. whatever else you want to put for mitigating cuts and bruises is up to you.

The vast majority (cycling 2-3% modal share ) don't dig even superficially deep and do see them as a safety device, it is called a helmet, not a head scratchguard and that is a problem in itself. The ignorant (of fact and experience) majority assume some Motorbike or F1 level of protection & get to try and dictate to those that do understand the nuances, whichever side we sit.

You can see this from the bottom half of of the Internet, comments from non cycling colleagues & friends, court pronouncements, the fixation in media on was/not wearing a helmet, irrespective if the victim fell from a metre onto a flat surface or may have been sent flying at NSL speed or crushed under a double decker bus.

This allied to the shops with sales targets who will get more helmets shifted with: and of course you'll be wanting one of these in case you crash pitch, rather than suggesting most of the minor injuries you now accept are a helmets lot in life, could also be mitigated with a wooly hat or the type of material & clothing you deem suitable to cover the rest of your body, equally likely to scratch cut and bruise in a crash whether pottering to the shops or MAMIL'ing it up in a fast chain gang every Sunday.

 

[MontyVeda]

Thanks for that.........isn't it good to have a MAMIL's viewpoint (me)?

Anyway, onwards and upwards. Took my 7 year old out this afternoon for a ride round our local disused airfield, on the road getting there he crashed whilst scratching his eye and simultaneously braking and changing gear with one hand. He didn't bang his head on the road but it was a timely reminder what could happen. To his credit he got back on didn't cry and carried on (he went down on his hands off the side as the front end jackknifed). He doesn't generally make a habit of falling over in other walks of life, well apart from playing football. His helmet is a scooter/skate type helmet which covers the head further down the sides and the back. I don't think we'll be leaving it off just yet, even though he didn't bang his head this time, it would be pretty irresponsible of me as a parent would it not, given helmets are so widely available and he's still getting to grips with riding bikes?
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I fell of my bike loads when i was a kid. We all did, and we all survived. The only person i know who had a serious childhood injury was my mother's cousin's daughter, she fell off a swing aged six and has been in a wheelchair ever since... i doubt even she forces her kids to wear a helmet when playing on the swing.