martint235
Dog on a bike
- Location
- Welling
Ooh maybe it's true then cos I'm terrified of downhills. If I wear a polystyrene shell (accurate description not a dig at wearers of a helmet) will I get quicker?
The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread
- Thread starter Shaun
- Start date
-
- Tags
- helmet helmet debate
Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.
martint235
Dog on a bike
- Location
- Welling
Why does my message show as "Awaiting moderator approval"? Is that the whole thread or just me?
- Location
- Shrewsbury, Shropshire
It's the whole Helmet Discussions section of the forum as explained here: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/helmet-discussions-sub-forum.207425/
martint235
Dog on a bike
- Location
- Welling
Cheers. Paranoia put back in box
mjr
Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
- Location
- mostly Norfolk, sometimes Somerset
Probably not. I don't use and I'm not worried about downhills. I'm worried about being spread across the road at the bottom of the hill or on the outside of a bend *badoom-tish* Ahthankyou ahthankyou
More seriously, I was usually at the front or near the front of various mixed user/non-user groups on descents on last weekend's 100k and there wasn't really an obvious pattern of where the helmets were... but it is Norfolk so nothing too steep unless the course-setter is a sadist - the longest descent was a bit over 2 miles of 4-5%.
It is a classic case of the personal choice argument. If you feel that a particular activity carries greater risk and you feel that in this case a helmet would be of benefit then wear one
However .....
If you get quicker is that because the helmet has raised your confidence to push the limits of your abilities and hence a classic case of helmet use increasing your risks
jefmcg
Guru
This is how I had an insight into my own risk compensation behaviour. I was riding to Brighton with a couple of friends, and when descending Reigate hill, one of the others pulled well away from me, while I kept my hands hovering over and touching the brakes. "I wish I was wearing a helmet" I thought, but immediately realised that if a car pulled out of a side street when I was travelling at 40mph, helmet or not was not going to change the outcome.
So a helmet might have enabled me to go faster downhill, but only because it gave me false confidence. I might get a St Christopher medal instead.
Anyone who thinks the more protection I have means I can take greater risks - is an idiot - the greatest protection is to assess the risk and behave accordingly - not to rely on some spurious protective kit to save you.
I'm not calling anyone on this site an idiot , its a generic expression only - I'm not intending to insult anyone, just in case you think I'm talking about you.
I'm not calling anyone on this site an idiot , its a generic expression only - I'm not intending to insult anyone, just in case you think I'm talking about you.
Problem is that as explained above, it is not necessarily a decision that is taken through a thought process, it can just be instinctual
It is also more prevalent than you think..
Look at previous posts about riding fast in close formation......far too dangerous to,do without wearing a helmet, yet somehow the same risk of colliding, coming off etc is reduced to a safe level by the helmet
jefmcg
Guru
I disagree. Anyone who believes they don't risk compensate is an idiot. Notice you do it, and modify your behaviour if it is warranted.
For example, I almost certainly would not have jumped off that bridge in New Zealand if I did not have a bungy cord wrapped around my ankles. It would have been safer not to jump off the bridge even so, but I felt the benefits of the experience outweighed the risk in that case.
mjr
Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
- Location
- mostly Norfolk, sometimes Somerset
The trouble is that we're almost all idiots in this regard, not matter how much we try to guard against it.
I've crashed as a consequence of undertaking a helmet-required ride (the last I ever did, I think - I decided to stop using a helmet before I got seriously injured) when the correct safe response would have been not to ride that bike in those conditions, especially for an optional journey... and I'm very familiar with the theory of risk compensation and of other things like confounding effects (aliased factors and so on). If graduate statisticians like me can fall victim to cycle helmet risk compensation like this, what hope is there for people who have never heard of the term, let alone studied it for years?
Those things are not safe and should be banned from the public roads to improve public safety in various ways.
I think you misunderstood him. From the full post, AIUI @Licramite was saying that anyone who thinks that just because he's wearing some protection, that makes it OK for him to take more risks is an idiot.
I know - there's allot of it about , I wear protective clothing , gloves, helmet, long trousers, because were I cycle , I'm going to need them to reduce the damage, If I didn't have them , I wouldn't cycle there. - (Ive tried with and without and come down to yes I need them.)
but then there's allot of idiots about , theres the argument safer cars produce more reckless drivers, I don't think its true, if you put a grenade on the dash and said , if it topless over it will explode, you would think people would drive with more care - no they would for a bit but soon revert to their normal ways,
reckless , unthinking drivers will always drive that way.
I suppose wearing a helmet to make you feel safe is as valid as not but putting on the mental cap saying - it won't happen to me instead - in both cases your wrong - it will happen to you and wearing a helmet won't protect you from doing stupid things. - it might reduce the damage - but not doing the stupid thing will reduce the damage a hell of allot more.
in the end - people are idiots , its only by our prodigious reproduction we as a species have survived at all.
but then there's allot of idiots about , theres the argument safer cars produce more reckless drivers, I don't think its true, if you put a grenade on the dash and said , if it topless over it will explode, you would think people would drive with more care - no they would for a bit but soon revert to their normal ways,
reckless , unthinking drivers will always drive that way.
I suppose wearing a helmet to make you feel safe is as valid as not but putting on the mental cap saying - it won't happen to me instead - in both cases your wrong - it will happen to you and wearing a helmet won't protect you from doing stupid things. - it might reduce the damage - but not doing the stupid thing will reduce the damage a hell of allot more.
in the end - people are idiots , its only by our prodigious reproduction we as a species have survived at all.
jefmcg
Guru
What? We hardly reproduce at all, compared to most mammals. No, our real trick is not dying. Life expectancy in the UK is now over 80, so most of us survive our bad judgements.
(@Moderators - This is meant as an example of risk compensation in reply to a post... if you feel it is going too far away from helmets, don't approve)
To me there is a stunningly simple example of why the argument is true
We now have the best tyre compounds and technology ever with tyres designed to optimise grip and braking
Then add the fact that we now have the most efficient brakes ever that allow more efficient braking than at any time in the past
This means that cars can stop more efficiently than ever. In some cases a car can stop in half to a third of the distance it took a car of thirty years ago
So approaching a junction and stopping should be safer than ever as the vehicle will have absolutely no problem stopping at the junction?
Apparently not.....
Despite all these improvements every junction her has "anti skid" or "high grip" surfacing..... because cars are still unable to stop at a junction
Take this one that "needs" several tens of metres of high grip anti skid surfacing to enable the drivers to stop.
The car has improved dramatically, so the only other explanation is that the drivers have adapted and are once again driving these vehicles in a manner that is beyond the capabilities of the vehicle.
In other words the cars are safer and perfectly able to stop, the drivers are more reckless and unable to stop for this reason
