The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

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swansonj

Guru
I've yet to read the article fully - tbh, I do this thing all day so it's nice to get a break from science at least occasionally. However, the devil is in the details - or in this case, the methods.

They look at three cases. Given that setting up these sort of models is time consuming that is not unreasonable. Those three cases came from a set of 84. I saw no mention of the selection criteria used. This is a major omission. All three cases involved skull fracture and celebral contusion: this may have formed at least part of the selection criteria. It looks very much like a very narrow specific set of circumstances were chosen, so I would be exeedingly cautious about deriving more general conclusions from this. In other words, this study is far too limited in scope to draw any general conclusions to the benefits of helmet wearing What I find deeply worrying is that the authors make no comment as to this in their conclusions, but instead make exactly gneral claims as to the benefits, which their study does not support: this is bad science.

Regarding the impact, only the initial head impact was considered. The accident and injury sequence (which may well have involved multiple head impacts, along with other injuries) was out of scope. In particular, loading on crucial structures in the neck were not considered, nor were rotational forces.

They applied a linear model for strain (Green-Lagrange). It looks like shear strain was not considered. This is rather unfortunate as shear is a significant mechanism for brain injury.

It should also be noted that wearing a helmet, because it makes the target that much larger, increases the probability of head impact. This wasn't considered - but this study was of course not looking at those factors, so this is not a criticism.
I read the paper on the plane last night on the way back from a meeting drafting a European safety standard. So, like you, a bit of a busman's holiday.

I am not bothered by the conflict of interest (mentioned by some people). The author gives their affiliation as the academic institution then declares that they are also CTO of the helmet company. That suggests either they are an academic who got involved in a spinoff company, or a product designer interested enough in how their products work to get involved in academia. Either way that sounds like something we should support. The interest was declared which is the important thing (own declaration of interest: I am currently auditing how well the conflict of interest policy works for the journal I am on the editorial board of, so it's a subject fresh on my mind).

There are two obvious big question marks about the work. One that you also honed in on is the selection criteria for the cases investigated. None are stated (editorial board hat on again: how did the refereeing process allow them to get away with that?). It seems highly likely the cases were chosen, subconsciously if not consciously, to be good test beds for the benefits of helmets. So the conclusion should perhaps be: helmets can have benefits in those situations where helmets are more likely to have benefits. Still a valid conclusion but not quite as universal, and not something anyone here would disagree with.

The other problem is that there's no validation of the performance of the finite element model of the helmet. You and I had an unfortunately antagonistic exchange recently about helmets cracking/splitting. (I still think we were actually agreed, even if we couldn't quite bring ourselves to say it, that a split helmet may well be, but is not necessarily, evidence of failure to perform as intended.) The model used in this paper certainly allows for the possibility of splitting (e.g. the shape of the stress-strain curves including the sheer one in figure A1). But what I don't know is whether they are realistically modelling real-life helmets - manufacturing defects, stress raisers, crack propagation, material inhomogeneities and all - or some highly idealised version. That is rather critical - if their model doesn't properly include the factor that we think may be the commonest reason for helmets failing to perform as expected in real life, well, reader, draw your own conclusion... They are also rather light on detail on how they model the evolution of the impact - if there was any info on the time step size, for instance, I missed it.

One could also point out that their assumption of a simple coefficient of friction does not allow for snagging, and they must have made some assumptions, which again I missed if they discussed them, about the performance of the straps.

HOWEVER, although all these factors argue for caution in interpreting the results, and although it is worrying they did not discuss these more themselves, I believe we should welcome papers like this. We have a situation where the epidemiological evidence is clear that helmets do not work. Yet most people approaching the subject have an intuitive sense that helmets should work. I don't think we can yet give a fully satisfactory explanation of why they don't. Part of that explanation would be about risk transfer etc, but part has to be about the helmet properties. The more we understand the actual helmet behaviour the better, because I don't believe we will ever stop the instinctive helmet advocates until we can say, not just that they are wrong in the faith they put in helmets, but why they are wrong.
 
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Well this has just popped upon my fb feed from a fellow club member


http://www.netmums.com/children/mum-warns-parents-to-always-make-their-children-wear-a-bike-helmet
Ffs
 

Justinslow

Lovely jubbly
Location
Suffolk
Well, the mothers had a pretty rough personal experience where a cycle crash resulted in a bad head injury to her child. Is freedom of speech not allowed these days?
I know of at least 4 people who've had cycle accidents and hit their heads within the last 2 years (in my narrow circle of friends) and that's not including the many who come on here and say they've hit theirs.
Who all say similar regarding helmet use.
It is their right to say what they like just as it is your right to disagree and say what you like.
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
I dont think you can say anyone who wears a helmet is daft to do so. Equally it would be wrong to say anyone who doesnt wear one is daft.

Perhaps offer proof that wearing a helmet offers drawbacks that definitely outweigh the benefits and you would have a point.
As @swansonj points out below, "the epidemiological evidence is clear that helmets do not work."

In other words the proof you are after exists.
 
Which again raises the same old question about accepting head injuries


Cycle head injury and helmets should be worn, yet for other head injuries..... well prevention or reduction isn't required

I also like the following posts on the same site:

My thought is that she will never learn not to bash her head if she is wearing a helmet that protects her.

i think they're a stupid idea

they'll teach your 8 month old that when she hits her head it dpoesn't hurt.
so she'll have no reason to stop hurling herself on the floor/down steps/off the sofa

babies have got on just fine for thousands of years without baby crash helmets

babies fall over. they're generally just fine!


Kids need to bump and fall, bleed and hurt to understand their own risk management.
Trips up A&E are a bit of a right of passage and if we don't let children experience pain and hurt then how on earth are we raising what should be rational sensible adults.

Interesting comments on child safety helmets, now imagine what would happen if those comments were posted on the original link?



It is always amazing how some head injuries are acceptable, yet put the child on a bike and suddenly preventing the same injuries becomes vital?
 

MontyVeda

a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
...
It is always amazing how some head injuries are acceptable, yet put the child on a bike and suddenly preventing the same injuries becomes vital?
It's shows how the Thudguard marketing campaign failed, and how successful the cyclehelmet marketing campaign has been. Parents adopting the Thudguard would be (mostly) considered over protective nutters... whilst those of us who shun the cyclehelmet are often called idiots who deserve to have their skull smashed in :wacko:
 
It's shows how the Thudguard marketing campaign failed, and how successful the cyclehelmet marketing campaign has been. Parents adopting the Thudguard would be (mostly) considered over protective nutters... whilst those of us who shun the cyclehelmet are often called idiots who deserve to have their skull smashed in :wacko:

I agree on the marketing, but after many years of accepting all head injuries except those on cycles, it was always going to be an uphill battle.

It is also an interesting snapshot of the attitude of individuals who have been influenced by the helmet marketing

This is why I like the Thudguard.... the same people who go to great extremes to promote cycle helmets, dismiss their own points and claims when it comes to the Thudguard

For example Medical opinion is unequivocal proof for cycle helmets, yet the same organisation and doctors are dismissed when it comes to the Thudguard
 
Well, the mothers had a pretty rough personal experience where a cycle crash resulted in a bad head injury to her child. Is freedom of speech not allowed these days?
I know of at least 4 people who've had cycle accidents and hit their heads within the last 2 years (in my narrow circle of friends) and that's not including the many who come on here and say they've hit theirs.
Who all say similar regarding helmet use.
It is their right to say what they like just as it is your right to disagree and say what you like.
Freedom of speech. Yes, but don't start campaigning and forcing those of us that choose not to wear plastic hats to wear them by law.

There is also the fact that 2 days later he went ill. Could well have done something in the meantime.
 
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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Freedom of speech. Yes, but don't start campaigning and forcing those of us that choose not to wear plastic hats to wear them by law.
And ideally,don't start campaigning and visiting a far worse harm (a choice of a quick death from the increased crashiness of helmet usera or a lingering death through ill health from reduced physical activity) on everyone else's children because of the tragedy that befell yours!

The general term for this sort of mistaken campaigning (that forced helmets onto New Zealanders, crushing cycling there) is "well-meaning sadism".
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
I dont think you can say anyone who wears a helmet is daft to do so. Equally it would be wrong to say anyone who doesnt wear one is daft.

Perhaps offer proof that wearing a helmet offers drawbacks that definitely outweigh the benefits and you would have a point.

well... you could look at the australian statistics of head injury rates (rates per cyclist, not out and out numbers mind) and you will see no net improvement. If we reasonably assume (as I do) that helmets sometimes help, then it logically follows they must make things worse in some other way - else Australia would show a net benefit - and it doesn't.

Bigger head (nearly twice as big) means you'll hit your head more - purely from geometry. There may be other reasons.
 
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Wobblers

Euthermic
Location
Minkowski Space
I never said that

If you think it reduces risk by wearing a helmet surely it is rational to consider further measures to protect against facial injuries - which, after all, are very common head injuries? In which case, pointing out that the most common helmets in use do not protect against facial injuries is not a red herring.

So comes down to the question: would you wear a full face helmet?
 

Wobblers

Euthermic
Location
Minkowski Space
I read the paper on the plane last night on the way back from a meeting drafting a European safety standard. So, like you, a bit of a busman's holiday.

I am not bothered by the conflict of interest (mentioned by some people). The author gives their affiliation as the academic institution then declares that they are also CTO of the helmet company. That suggests either they are an academic who got involved in a spinoff company, or a product designer interested enough in how their products work to get involved in academia. Either way that sounds like something we should support. The interest was declared which is the important thing (own declaration of interest: I am currently auditing how well the conflict of interest policy works for the journal I am on the editorial board of, so it's a subject fresh on my mind).

There are two obvious big question marks about the work. One that you also honed in on is the selection criteria for the cases investigated. None are stated (editorial board hat on again: how did the refereeing process allow them to get away with that?). It seems highly likely the cases were chosen, subconsciously if not consciously, to be good test beds for the benefits of helmets. So the conclusion should perhaps be: helmets can have benefits in those situations where helmets are more likely to have benefits. Still a valid conclusion but not quite as universal, and not something anyone here would disagree with.

The other problem is that there's no validation of the performance of the finite element model of the helmet. You and I had an unfortunately antagonistic exchange recently about helmets cracking/splitting. (I still think we were actually agreed, even if we couldn't quite bring ourselves to say it, that a split helmet may well be, but is not necessarily, evidence of failure to perform as intended.) The model used in this paper certainly allows for the possibility of splitting (e.g. the shape of the stress-strain curves including the sheer one in figure A1). But what I don't know is whether they are realistically modelling real-life helmets - manufacturing defects, stress raisers, crack propagation, material inhomogeneities and all - or some highly idealised version. That is rather critical - if their model doesn't properly include the factor that we think may be the commonest reason for helmets failing to perform as expected in real life, well, reader, draw your own conclusion... They are also rather light on detail on how they model the evolution of the impact - if there was any info on the time step size, for instance, I missed it.

One could also point out that their assumption of a simple coefficient of friction does not allow for snagging, and they must have made some assumptions, which again I missed if they discussed them, about the performance of the straps.

HOWEVER, although all these factors argue for caution in interpreting the results, and although it is worrying they did not discuss these more themselves, I believe we should welcome papers like this. We have a situation where the epidemiological evidence is clear that helmets do not work. Yet most people approaching the subject have an intuitive sense that helmets should work. I don't think we can yet give a fully satisfactory explanation of why they don't. Part of that explanation would be about risk transfer etc, but part has to be about the helmet properties. The more we understand the actual helmet behaviour the better, because I don't believe we will ever stop the instinctive helmet advocates until we can say, not just that they are wrong in the faith they put in helmets, but why they are wrong.

I'm a bit surprised that you thought our previous discussion on cracking was antagonistic: I thought it interseting, and you made me think about the process much deeper than I had done before, which is good. So let me first off apologise for being so obstreperous: it certainly wasn't my intention or wish.

I largely agree with you about the referenced paper. Like you, I'm not that worried about the conflict of interest. I am a little more concerned about the methodology: they seem to have considered compressive strain only in the model used. Given that shear is the major failure mechanism here (for the helmet), it wouldn't be adequately modelled from my understanding (wihch may be incorrect as I'm not an expert in finite element analysis). They are, in other words, assuming that the helmet behaves in an ideal manner. This assumption is not stated.

But my major criticism is the conclusion. They demonstrate that it may be possible to model brain injury in three specific examples. |But even here, the comparisons between model results and medical data are qualitative. Worse, there is no means to give an objective and quantitative measure to the success of the modelling. Without this, we have no means to adequately judge how good a fit their model gives. Their data suggeststhat a helmet may have been successful in these instances in reducing injury. But that has not been proven, so there conclusion that they have demonstrated exactly this (and extending it more generally to all circumstances) is by no means justifiable. They have not. More work is required. Three cases falls far below the numbers required for good, reliable statistics. Were I to do this in the papers I submit, they'd get rejected.

TL;DR: The paper is interesting, and is one avenue that needs to be explored. But the methodology needs to be more robust, and any conclusions derived must be supported by the data and statistics. This falls short.
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
Rivara and Thompson proved they prevented knee injuries!

I recall one of the papers indicated that helmets protected more cyclists than actually wore them; a bit like vaccination protecting those still unvaccinated I suppose.

Mind you, on the knee injuries thing, I suppose if you hit your (now bigger) helmetted head more than before it is logical that you might hit your knees less.
 
I recall one of the papers indicated that helmets protected more cyclists than actually wore them; a bit like vaccination protecting those still unvaccinated I suppose.

Mind you, on the knee injuries thing, I suppose if you hit your (now bigger) helmetted head more than before it is logical that you might hit your knees less.

BHIT and Angela Lee did this as well

They took ALL cycling head injuries and claimed that that was the number of children's lives that would be saved with compulsory helmets.

So if you looked at the actual figures you had the bizarre situation where helmet use would increase cycling related head injuries by several orders of magnitude.

These bizarre claims are one of the reasons so many "celebrity" endorsements were withdrawn.

Headway did something similar by taking all cycling injuries and claiming that they would be prevented by helmets

It raises the question that if helmets are so good, why the pro helmet / compulsion lobby has to lie
 
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