The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[ufkacbln]

They'd have been wearing helmets during the flight?

Cardinal Biggles wears a flying helmet!

 

[MontyVeda]

The poster has since kindly pointed out to me that 'No one seems to come to grief' whilst cycling in Amsterdam. Okay I take that on board, they've reiterated to me that they hold this opinion because they haven't seen it with their own eyes ...fairy nuff I would swear blind Leeds isn't a violent city as iv'e never seen an assault in Leeds however obviously I'm completely wrong and so are they.

That aside -you can throw all the statistics in the world around about the billions of miles done in Amsterdam (and im not arguing with them - please take this on board or try reading my posts ) the fact is that there are a significant number of cycling Injuries in Amsterdam.

Leeds isn't a violent city. Assaults happen, just like in any other town or city, but that doesn't make a town or city 'violent'... so yes, you are wrong.

 

[ufkacbln]

You said the injuries were significant, I didnt, I said the numbers were...

In order to be included in the numbers as "serious" you have to be able to define the parameters.

However I would be happy with an explanation of "significant" in terms of the numbers

 

[Justinslow]

I think it's worth @Justinslow taking a read of this on the subject of danger.
http://www.gicentre.net/blog/2013/11/24/risk-cycling-and-denominator-neglect

Yeah read that many times.

So do mountain bikers serious or amateur wear their helmets for fashion or safety?

 

[derrick]

Don't know if this has been put up before, I cannot be bothered to look through 239 pages of ********.
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1261.html

 

[derrick]

Why not? Do you not feel that to do so might be the minimum courtesy you could afford everyone else?

Why, This is 239 pages of the same people arguing for the sake of it. There will never be a conclusion. You either wear one or you don't. Trying to push your views onto someone who does not agree with them is pointless.

 

[doog]

However I would be happy with an explanation of "significant" in terms of the numbers

500 cyclists are seriously injured a year in Amsterdam. I think 500 serious injuries is a significant amount and so the Government.

http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/media-centre/city-hall/dossier-cycling/cycling-faq

https://www.amsterdam.nl/parkeren-verkeer/fiets/cycling-amsterdam/road-safety/

Interesting report here http://www.swov.nl/rapport/R-2014-35.pdf

What will happen now is that people will argue the toss and say these figures are 'insignificant' compared to the trillions of miles and thousands of cyclists in Amsterdam....(however read my earlier posts about this before you jump on the little rolling bandwagon that is the CC helmet debate )

 

[Justinslow]

I've just found this out all on my own.

"Except for motorways and expressways, most roads support cyclists. Some 35,000 km (a quarter of all Dutch roads) feature dedicated cycle tracks, physically segregated from motor traffic.[5][6] A further 4,700 km of roads have clearly marked bike lanes,[6] and on other roads, traffic is calmed such that cyclists and motorists can safely mix. Busy junctions sometimes give priority to cyclists, and in street roads like fietsstraten and woonerven, bicycles always have priority over cars."

Yep just like the UK.............

 

[mjr]

Where were you again?

The hedge was on the far side of https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9...4!1s3fgPmMUftoMnMqCyZsBYtA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 and the fall was near https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8...4!1s1xbKwcIcz0MxC1EmCuQceQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 but of course Google's car doesn't go to the exact spots. Why?

 

[Fab Foodie]

Yeah read that many times.

So do mountain bikers serious or amateur wear their helmets for fashion or safety?

I don't know as I'm not one but I assume they wear them for safety?

 

[Justinslow]

Here's a rather lovely picture of some girls on bikes, the one on the far right is Millie and you may notice she is on a unicycle. She has just completed or is about to start her Sweat Pledge for Kajsa Tylens Year in the Saddle record. She acheived her 3 miles in one go, up hill, down hill and round corners. This despite a number of falls, but she got back on and went at it again, well done Millie!!
But take a closer look at MIllie and compare her to the rest of the children she's riding with, isn't that odd?

That's a nice picture, no it's not odd, like I said my own kids sometimes ride with or without helmets.

 

[mjr]

I've just found this out all on my own.

"Except for motorways and expressways, most roads support cyclists. Some 35,000 km (a quarter of all Dutch roads) feature dedicated cycle tracks, physically segregated from motor traffic.[...]"

Sadly, whoever wrote that bit of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_in_the_Netherlands seems to have combined two facts from different sources and reached the wrong conclusion. The total road length is from the CIA World Factbook and is the road length, whereas the 35,000km figure is the length of cycle tracks - put one-way cycle tracks along each side of a road (as current best practice) and that's 1km with 2km of cycle tracks. Put 1km nowhere near a road and that's 0km with 1km of cycle track.

We can't say how the cycle track figures for the UK compare because I've not seen a total length (nor the length of decent cycle track, excluding paint-and-signs footway conversions that the Dutch would label as "slechte fietspad" or "slechte wegdek"). Maybe someone who knows OpenStreetMap can see how to get the answer from what it knows.

Busy junctions sometimes give priority to cyclists, and in street roads like fietsstraten and woonerven, bicycles always have priority over cars."

Yep just like the UK.............

Indeed! Busy junctions here sometimes give priority to cyclists and in special zones like Shared Space, Home Zones and Quiet Lanes, bicycles have priority over cars.

The main difference in the Netherlands is that cycling infrastructure joins up: when something like a big bypass is built, it seems a wide enough cycle track is built to preserve the connection of the old roads with a proper crossing (example), whereas in the UK, either a tiny narrow track is grudgingly provided left (edited as usually they achieve it by destroying most of the former carriageway's width) to an afterthought unprotected crossing (example) or the former route is simply completely disconnected (example)

 

[derrick]

In that case, why post here at all? You are effectively saying you have no respect for the discussion or those involved in it.

I would not say all involved, But not a lot for people saying the same thing over and over.
But i did think the link i put up might interest some on here.

 

[Justinslow]

I would not say all involved, But not a lot for people saying the same thing over and over.
But i did think the link i put up might interest some on here.

I read it @derrick, thanks for posting, a good article.

 

[Mugshot]

I read it @derrick, thanks for posting, a good article.

I'm glad you found the time to read the article which derrick linked to from http://www.cyclehelmets.org/ you're right it is interesting, it's a pity you haven't had the chance to study that website on any of the other umpteen occasions it's been linked to but you've found it now