The CC col-bagger thread

[Mr Celine]

Magnificent. Swyre/Swire/Swire seems a common name for Borders' cols. Is yours the one near Peebles above Kirkton Manor?

It may even be local dialect for a road going over a col or a pass. This one is between Ettrickbridge and Yarrow. Not named by the OS.

 

[RedRider]

It may even be local dialect for a road going over a col or a pass. This one is between Ettrickbridge and Yarrow. Not named by the OS.

I wonder if it's the one named in the book by it's old name kirkhope swire? The note says, "not on maps, known locally as Bottom Swire and mentioned in the ballad 'whaup o' the rede'

 

[Mr Celine]

I wonder if it's the one named in the book by it's old name kirkhope swire? The note says, "not on maps, known locally as Bottom Swire and mentioned in the ballad 'whaup o' the rede'

Yes, that's it. I was going to mention that it's sometimes called the Bottom Swire, the Top Swire being the B709 to the west, which is normally known by local cyclists as the Berrybush.
The novel The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner by James Hogg, a 19th century contemporary of Sir Walter Scott, has a glossary of local (ie Borders) terms which defines a swire as a hollow, either at the top of a hill or between hills.

[QUOTE 4770202, member: 9609"]Never heard it called that before, I know it as "Witchie Knowe". I often do this along with the Wiss, a nice little 20 mile circuit taking in two Bealachs (Col )
[/QUOTE]
The Witchie Knowe is the hill top from which my second picture is taken. It's only about 30 metres from the cattle grid but has a much better view, particularly to the south.

 

[Tin Pot]

Nice views.

They remind me of Sheephouse Lane, Bolton - is that on the list of Cols?

 

[mjr]

The classic definition of a col stipulates that it should have higher ground on both sides - for a route to cross a ridge is not enough in itself. This may explain why in some areas there may be fewer than might have been expected. However, to say that the Cotswolds, for example, are almost col-less doesn't seem very plausible. There is a very distinct col on the A435 Cheltenham - Cirercester road, for example.

Just north of Seven Springs? I'd agree.

Yes, in the strict sense, the map is incomplete. Even Norfolk has a few cols (but only a few). I suspect the author was requiring a particular height difference (maybe 10-20m?) to prequalify them on a map.

 

[Mr Celine]

[QUOTE 4771287, member: 9609"]I got caught going over the 'Top Swire' (Berrybush) last January in deteriorating weather, I suffered badly on the ascent in snow/sleat. then the skies cleared and the temperature dropped and my hands nearly froze off on the run back down the yarrow to selkirk.

Just out of curiosity, you said you were over Witchie Knowe Thursday. I was in the Waterwheel at 3:30ish and a cyclist came past, could it have been you?

anyway - two pictures of Top Swire / Berrybush
[/QUOTE]

One January I remember grinding my way up there into the teeth of a howling headwind, turned the corner at the top and thanks to the howling tailwind was soon spinning out in top gear and riding in still air.

According to strava I passed the Waterwheel yesterday at 2:45. Heading towards Selkirk, blue top, milk bottle legs (first time out in shorts this year).

Here's a panorama south from the Witchie Knowe. The hairpin on the swire road is a quarter of the way in from the right.

 

[RedRider]

Nice views.

They remind me of Sheephouse Lane, Bolton - is that on the list of Cols?

Not that I can see, no.

Just north of Seven Springs? I'd agree.

Yes, in the strict sense, the map is incomplete. Even Norfolk has a few cols (but only a few). I suspect the author was requiring a particular height difference (maybe 10-20m?) to prequalify them on a map.

The lowest he identifies is one he calls the col of Tayvallich which is twelve metres above sea level. The Jura ferry sails from it's foot.

One January I remember grinding my way up there into the teeth of a howling headwind, turned the corner at the top and thanks to the howling tailwind was soon spinning out in top gear and riding in still air.

According to strava I passed the Waterwheel yesterday at 2:45. Heading towards Selkirk, blue top, milk bottle legs (first time out in shorts this year).

Here's a panorama south from the Witchie Knowe. The hairpin on the swire road is a quarter of the way in from the right.

View attachment 348636

Great to see pictures of these places. The author spends much of his discourse on the border cols talking about the wind. "One of the easiest [days I spent on a bike] was spent riding through the Scottish Borders towards Edinburgh with the broad hand of a southerly gale on my back. Now and then, a south-bound cyclist would pass, as though in a different dimension, grimacing like a soul in torment under the curse of a heaven-sent wind."
[QUOTE 4771425, member: 9609"]Is there a list ? that map is a bit vague. I have probably done all the ones in the Borders but if I had the list I could go and do them again for this thread, it would be a good enough excuse. I have always had a fascination cols/bealachs from my Munroing days and also as to their significance in often being watersheds between two rivers, I like rivers
[/QUOTE]
Two-thirds of the book is a lIst (or catalogue) with latitudes, longitudes and national grid references. I think it would be a bit unfair on the author to post pics of these up but from what you say about your munro days I think the book would be right up your pass so to speak.

Here's a cheeky map of bottom swire etc though...

 

[Tin Pot]

Nice Tolkien style map there

 

[RedRider]

Nice Tolkien style map there

Yes, he describes a bit of the Malvern Hills stretch mentioned earlier as Hobbiton like as well. There's a similar fascination with maps and legends.

 

[swansonj]

Just north of Seven Springs? I'd agree.

Yes, in the strict sense, the map is incomplete. Even Norfolk has a few cols (but only a few). I suspect the author was requiring a particular height difference (maybe 10-20m?) to prequalify them on a map.

There surely has to be a minimum height difference qualification (or some other equally arbitrary filter) or else there'd be an infinite number of cols. Consider a ridge. Every undulation along the ridge meets the definition of a col, and the closer you zoom in, the more undulations you'll find. Isn't it a fractal problem, analogous to the other geography problem, what''s the length of the coastline, and the cycling problem, what was the height gain on that ride - there has to be a minimum increment defined or the answer is ambiguous and probably infinite.

Nonetheless, I'd be fascinated to know the highest cols in each country or possible in each county - it's just the sort of arbitrary but satisfyingly nerdy basis for planning a day out, alongside the highest peak, the highest paved road, etc.

 

[briantrumpet]

I still haven't quite wrapped my head round his definition of a col (sorry I can't quote the relevant passage, but my book is residing in France near lots of 1000m+ cols) - it doesn't just seem to mean the lowest point between two mountains, but also involves the way that that point was formed, which must involve glaciation or tectonic movement. In the case of Devon, I certainly haven't worked out how the ones he's marked as cols differ from many other similar places which seem to be de facto cols.

 

[briantrumpet]

As an example of one - the B3212 from Dunsford to Moretonhampstead, just before the descent into Moretonhampstead - it looks and smells like a col to me:

 

[briantrumpet]

Here's a wikipedia entry: "The saddle between two hills (or mountains) is the region surrounding the highest point of the lowest point on the line tracing the drainage divide (the col) connecting the peaks. When, and if, the saddle is navigable, even if only on foot, the saddle of a (optimal) pass between the two massifs, is the area generally found around the lowest route on which one could pass between the two summits, which includes that point which is a mathematically when graphed a relative high along one axis, and a relative low in the athwart axis, simultaneously; that point being by definition the col of the saddle." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddle_(landform)

I think, according to that, the B3212 example above fits the definition of a col as given here. But if it doesn't, why?

 

[Mr Celine]

Not that I can see, no.


The lowest he identifies is one he calls the col of Tayvallich which is twelve metres above sea level. The Jura ferry sails from it's foot.


Great to see pictures of these places. The author spends much of his discourse on the border cols talking about the wind. "One of the easiest [days I spent on a bike] was spent riding through the Scottish Borders towards Edinburgh with the broad hand of a southerly gale on my back. Now and then, a south-bound cyclist would pass, as though in a different dimension, grimacing like a soul in torment under the curse of a heaven-sent wind."

Two-thirds of the book is a lIst (or catalogue) with latitudes, longitudes and national grid references. I think it would be a bit unfair on the author to post pics of these up but from what you say about your munro days I think the book would be right up your pass so to speak.

Here's a cheeky map of bottom swire etc though...

View attachment 348695

Carcant Nick is popular with Edinburgh cyclists who call it the Granites. Windy House is the name of a cottage on the north side of the Berrybush / top swire, which is currently hidden behind the plantation on the right in @User9609's photo above. (Said plantation is in the process of being felled.)

That map would look better with a 'here be dragons' legend on it somewhere.