The Birds

[gbb]

Ther magpies obviously considered a pest in certain circumstances...to the point where it's legal to shoot them ...as below..

''Airgun Prey

The following pests are considered suitable for controlling using a sub-12 ft-lb Airgun.
Brown Rat, Grey Squirrel, Rabbit, Crow, Rook, Magpie, Jay, Wood pigeon, Collared Dove, Feral Pigeon, House mouse, and recently Mink have been added to the list.
These are not always considered pests and only Authorised Persons can shoot them in all circumstances. Please check with your local authority before shooting any live quarry.''

As stated in...
http://www.airguns-online.co.uk/you_and_the_law.htm

I have no desire to go kill them....but have read too many articles that infer they have a very negative impact on surrounding bird populations.

Your (my ) opinion is based on your own local circumstances. I cant drive anywhere around Peterborough without seeing endless groups of them..every mile or so you will see two or three of them. They are even encroaching into urban areas, despite their reluctance to be around people. I often think its the increase in roadkill thats helped them spread. (Peterborough is encircled by a dual carriageway system..high speed, bordered by countryside for the most part...roadkill aplenty )

Here, i would say there are FAR too many of them, remembering that 15 or so years ago...you NEVER saw them.

 

[Over The Hill]

I would be pleased to have them. I live by some open fields and have lots of Rooks and Crows around that make a bit of noise but not a problem.

First time ever seen yesterday was a Kite. Massive bird! quite scary looking. It ripped a rabbit apart in the field but I did not see it catch it.

Before I start sounding like a twitcher - if Val and Susan had that affect on us what do you think kids tv presenters of today are doing to the yoof out there-

For all you without kids, so no excuse to watch TV at 9am on a Saturday get a load of Caroline Flack...

View: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xUNGGtNFUBo&feature=related

 

[Gromit]

Its silly to go around wanting to kill just one species, why not kill Robins, Seagulls, birds of pray, humans, cats and dogs too? They are all responsible for the demise of the song bird. Leave them alone, they will be gone in a few months.

 

[Arch]

I often think its the increase in roadkill thats helped them spread. (Peterborough is encircled by a dual carriageway system..high speed, bordered by countryside for the most part...roadkill aplenty )

Here, i would say there are FAR too many of them, remembering that 15 or so years ago...you NEVER saw them.

If there's plenty of road kill, why would they need to kill chicks? And as songbirds are declining, how are the magpies doing so well, if that's what they live off? Songbirds have been declining for longer than 15 years, I think. Laurence seems to know what he's talking about, I'd say leave them alone. 'Far too many?' What's 'too many' - just because you don't happen to like them. Like Gromit says, they are hardly the only thing that kills chicks - what gives you the right to decide. Why not ask the local authority as you quote in the airgun site, and see what they say?

 

[laurence]

the decline of sparrows has been blamed on the increase in the sparrowhawk population... interesting how a species can increase when their food source has almost vanished.

humans want to blame anything but themselves for the decline of species.

red kites were exterminated due to their predatory nature, but, like magpies and crows, they are scavengers, relying on carrion for food.

there's been a massive increase in koreans around my way... i don't assume that it's because they are killing all the cute little english babies.

black birds are demonised purely for their colour, it's classic racism. this is the same as black cats.

Magpies are considered a pest in certain instances, mainly wildlife reserves where smaller species are threatened, yet if you go to some of those you'll see herons. a couple of years ago Avocets bred at the london wetlands centre - all the chicks were eaten by herons.

birds eat other birds, it's a dog eat dog world.

two magpies building a nest in a nearby tree isn't a pest problem. as i said, it's illegal to damage a wild bird nest. these birds mate for life, they are building a temporary home to raise a family and then will be gone. what's the harm? is it such an inconvenience? and before moaning about noise, listen to the world outside, there's hardly a place you can go without hearing a car, 'plane, etc. bird noises are so much nicer.

grow up, stop wanting to kill everything that you don't understand.

 

[gbb]

If there's plenty of road kill, why would they need to kill chicks? And as songbirds are declining, how are the magpies doing so well, if that's what they live off? Songbirds have been declining for longer than 15 years, I think. Laurence seems to know what he's talking about, I'd say leave them alone. 'Far too many?' What's 'too many' - just because you don't happen to like them. Like Gromit says, they are hardly the only thing that kills chicks - what gives you the right to decide. Why not ask the local authority as you quote in the airgun site, and see what they say?

Firstly..an open statement...not directed at you Arch
Before we go any further...please dont think i advocate the killing of these birds....i simply have mixed feelings about their 'abundance'.

I have lived in the country most of my life and been a bird 'enthusiast' for many many years. That enthusiasm has rubbed off to my 23 year old son, who i've been taking birdwatching since he was 10...he's far more fanatical than me. I dont say things without at least a modicum of knowedge and athough i dont claim to be expert in any way..i know the populations of magpie have exploded in the last 20 years or so.
How did i manage to live for the first 30 years and NEVER see a magpie....and now they're everywhere here...

Arch...you know that taking of chicks is a natural instinct...just as taking carrion is...just because theres plenty of carrion, doesnt mean they wont take chicks. Its like expecting cats not to kill birds because you feed them. No...the point i was trying to make is the abundance of magpies means their impact on bird populations is out of proportion.

Too many...far to many ? If you consider the local bird population 20 years ago didnt have to survive ANY magpie families...then yes, there are far too many now.(i am talking of my area...not anyone elses)
I dont understand how the magpie population has exploded as it has. That does puzzle me.
'Hate them'....I certainly dont hate them, i didnt say that, they are in fact beautiful in some ways..intelligent....just a shame they have such an impact on bird populations.


Ask the local authority re airgun use ?...i've no intention Arch..i dont really advocate that either. The article was posted simply to illustrate that magpies are indeed regarded as vermin in some quarters...and its legal in some cases to kill them, which can be said of very very few birds in this country. There has to be a good reason for that.

I dont have the answers...but i wont stand in the corner of a bird...or any animal..to protect it, whatever the cost to surrounding species....simply because its one of gods creatures.

Be happy everyone....this has all the hallmarks of a subject that could get out of hand

 

[sheddy]

Well according to the RSPB, although magpies are protected in the EU, in the UK they are not. (last para) http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/gardening/unwantedvisitors/magpies/thelaw.asp

 

[Dave5N]

Last spring I spent a few weeks in the garden, watching some blackbirds set up home high in the hawthorns (mine, not the Baggies').

Fascinating it was.

Then one day, a pair of magpies repeatedly attacked. Blackbirds went nuts but there was nothing they could do to fight them off.

I figured the eggs or young chicks were taken, as the blackbirds never returned.

 

[laurence]

gbb - have you considered how much peterborough has expanded in that time? again, back to sparrowhawks. people now see them in their gardens and so the sighting rise. if they were in the woods (a natural habitat) they wouldn't be spotted so readily. the destruction of that habitat has meant they seek food elsewhere... as do other birds.

blackbirds are also woodland birds that have 'migrated' and now are seen as a garden bird.

blackbirds and robins are hugely territorial and will attack others in their patch (that's what all that lovely singing is, a warning to others that that area is spoken for). robins are quite aggressive with other robins (and songbirds), yet that hasn't stopped them being a regular feature on xmas cards.

birds can and are vicious. they will kill or attack others in their patch. just watch swans as it gets to breeding season for this

had you watched magpies rearing young for them to be attacked by crows or a hawk you'd feel for the young.

sheddy... the last paragraph is a tad ambiguous, i read it as being that a nest can be destroyed for pest control reasons by someone authorised to do so. i could be wrong though. looks like the UK opt out of EU law might just favour those who like removing 'pests' from their estates - see the continued slaughter of birds of prey by landowners (including royal land) without any regard for what is killed.

 

[gbb]

Perhaps i'm not putting over my thoughts clearly.

Magpies, like any other creature, have their place on this earth. Many many creatures survive at the expense of others. I dont have a problem with that...like it would make any difference if i did

The problem is when the population increases out of proportion with its food source..and then has a negative impact on it.

Sparrowhaws for instance could decimate the local songbird population. But once its done that, it will itself starve and the population of Sparrowhawks will subsequently fall. Thats a natural process.

With magpies, its different. They have adapted and flourished and multiplied..perhaps ( only perhaps ) because of the abundance of carrion WE have inadvertently given it...and now thier population is out of proportion with its natural foodsources. Even if it ate all the songbird population..it wouldnt suffer the same way as the Sparrowhawk, because its not dependent on the very birds they are apparenty decimating.

 

[laurence]

ok... from the RSPB...

"Most British members of the crow family (including magpies) will take eggs and nestlings. This can be upsetting to witness but it is completely natural. However, some people are concerned that there may be a long-term effect on songbird populations.

Many of the UKs commonest songbirds have declined during the last 25 years, at a time when populations of magpies increased. To find out why songbirds are in trouble, the RSPB has undertaken intensive research on species such as the skylark and song thrush. To discover whether magpies (or sparrowhawks) could be to blame for the decline, the RSPB commissioned the British Trust for Ornithology (BTO) to analyse its 35 years of bird monitoring records.

The study found that songbird numbers were no different in places where there were many magpies or sparrowhawks from where there are few. It found no evidence that increased numbers of magpies have caused declines in songbirds and confirms that populations of prey species are not determined by the numbers of their predators. It is the availability of food and suitable places in which to nest that decide the population.

Having discounted predation as a possible factor, the RSPB continues to study the loss of food and habitats caused by intensive farming. The change from spring to autumn sowing and the increase in the use of agricultural chemicals have reduced the amount of insects and weed seeds available for songbirds to eat.

These changes, and others, including the removal of hedgerows which are used for nesting, roosting and feeding sites by some birds, have played a part in the severe declines in many of our farmland species."

 

[laurence]

from the RSPB again... this time on the population explosion of the evil birds...

"Until the mid-19th century, magpies were very common in Britain and were popular with farmers because they eat harmful insects and rodents. But from then until the First World War, heavy persecution by gamekeepers caused their numbers to plummet.

Since World War II, magpie numbers have increased. Their numbers trebled from 1970 to 1990, since when they have become more stable. Urban and suburban magpies increased much faster than rural populations. In towns they are not persecuted, there is more food available, magpies will nest close to people, which protects their nests from crows, and they can breed earlier in the year because towns are warmer than the surrounding countryside.

Urban magpies will use artificial nest sites and nest materials, and will take food from bird tables, sometimes storing it in man-made structures such as gutters and eaves.

Factors that normally limit magpie populations are lack of nesting territories and high mortality of young birds. The relatively stable population since 1990 suggests that magpies have reached an ecological equilibrium."

 

[sheddy]

Laurence, see what you mean. I shall ask the RSPB for clarification

 

[gbb]

Your quotes are most interesting Laurence..and perhaps show the balance of views on the subject...which i already knew there would be.
As always, there is no definitive answer...i know that. EVERYTHING we read, from one camp or the other..is somewhat biased toward themselves.
Shooters...of course, they would have as many species available as was possible. They want to shoot, they will find the justification to do so.
RSPB..of course, they will defend ALL birds..thats their job.

As said before, i have no hatred of Magpies, simply feel that in my area in particular..the population has exploded. In pure simple terms, that MUST have a bad impact on songbird populations.

In Sheddys case...and we seem to forget this was the original question...we seem to have moved far from that...in Sheddys case, theres no reason in the world to assume they need any control at all.

 

[laurence]

pure simple terms don't seem to apply though... here there are thousands of parakeets. some people hate them and claim they drive the 'native' birds away. yet, there's no proof at all.

it seems that some birds move into the space left by declining species and magpies are opportunists (as are parakeets). where the decline starts and the takeover begins can merge.

the RSPB site also has interesting details of their breeding. only a small percentage of magpies are breeding pairs due to lack of nest sites and because they are territorial, so the huge tiding you see aren't growing at a massive rate... it's more likely that they're just huge tidings, a gathering due to availability of food and destruction of their former habitat. this is much like urban foxes.

an example of how the bird population can change is an email from a friend. he's just seen two starlings on his lawn - the first ones he's seen for ages. a few years ago towns were actively driving them out as they were a 'pest'. they are now on the critical list for the UK due to their decline, many here in the winter are migrant birds.

another is the siskin. there have been thousands here this year - are they driving out native species? i've certainly seen more of them than i have UK birds, such as long-tailed tits. they get away with it by being cute and small.

magpies are cursed by being subject to hundreds of years of superstition. the Jay is a much loved bird, but it the brother of the magpie. it's equally as destructive, but it's colourful. i recently saw a group gather to drive magpies out of a tree. it's all nature.

i agree about Sheddy, there's no need to control them - in fact, a breeding pair will stop others (magpies) from encroaching. they might even keep any rats at bay!