That worthless and dangerous cycling infrastructure

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The most hilarious bit about that is if you go to the Go Dutch winner page the proposal to "clear space for cycling on main roads in every borough" is illustrated with a pavement cycle track with no cyclists but the obligatory pedestrian walking in it.

Go Dutch
 

stowie

Legendary Member
wrong - setting aside their current spasm on Blackfirars Bridge they've moved on (except for the Camden lot, who are fruitcakes)

I'm not going to excuse your selective quotation. And I simply don't believe that separate lanes increase safety. And further I don't care. I just don't want them. And I'm happy to say we won't be getting them. So all is well.

And...........barbaric. Yes. I'll stick with that. Barbarism of a particularly delicate and suburban kind, but, nonetheless.......count the barriers between the front door on the left of the picture and the front door on the right of the picture. Are these people neighbours? Or are they simply receptacles in to which transport consultants pour their wisdom?

03-nl.jpg

In your own words then Dell - show me the drawing. What would your version of this street look like? I know what this would look like in the UK with our planners - that cycle path would be converted to car use.

We can all argue over whether space should be dedicated to cycle use, or for something else. But at the moment, available space is almost solely dedicated to car use which fractures the public space more than any cycle provision could. And I cannot really see it changing in the near future. Sure, some "shared space" will be created as this appears to be the latest fashion (but does it really work outside some very specific scenarios?) , some gyratorys may be converted back to 2 way operation. But ultimately our public spaces are still dedicated to car usage.

Outside some specific needs (such as providing permeability) widescale cycle lane provision shouldn't be required. Indeed, in my extensive travels around the Nordic region, I note that most town centres haven't got cycle provision, they have simply removed the car (or at least reduced the accessibility of the centre for them). Cycle provision falls out naturally from the space along with much improved pedestrian environment.
 

MrHappyCyclist

Riding the Devil's HIghway
Location
Bolton, England
Outside some specific needs (such as providing permeability) widescale cycle lane provision shouldn't be required. Indeed, in my extensive travels around the Nordic region, I note that most town centres haven't got cycle provision, they have simply removed the car (or at least reduced the accessibility of the centre for them). Cycle provision falls out naturally from the space along with much improved pedestrian environment.
I think you answered your own question in your last paragraph.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
In your own words then Dell - show me the drawing. What would your version of this street look like?
like the standard suburban street. I think the carriageway is 24 feet wide, but I might be out of date. Sufficient carriageway space for cars to park on both sides and for two cars to pass each other in opposite directions.

If there's a problem with rat-running, barrier at one end to make a home zone. Cheap and cheerful.

so - to take the examples provided by David Hembrow -

English street - fine and dandy (not keen on the islands)
06-uk.jpg


Dutch street (despite being wider) - nasty
06-nl.jpg
 

stowie

Legendary Member
like the standard suburban street. I think the carriageway is 24 feet wide, but I might be out of date. Sufficient carriageway space for cars to park on both sides and for two cars to pass each other in opposite directions.

If there's a problem with rat-running, barrier at one end to make a home zone. Cheap and cheerful.

so - to take the examples provided by David Hembrow -

English street - fine and dandy (not keen on the islands)
06-uk.jpg


Dutch street (despite being wider) - nasty
06-nl.jpg

As a pedestrian or resident, I cannot see how either would be different from each other. Large road space dividing up either side of the street. I might even prefer the latter picture since the narrower car space may reduce car speeds. As a cyclist, the pinch point islands are just horrible - especially in suburban roads such as these where average car speeds tend to exceed 30 mph.

And I simply cannot see the aesthetic merit of a wide piece of tarmac with occasional pedestrian island and legions of hatchings any more that I see the aesthetic merit of a cycle-lane and no hatchings.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
it's not about the looks of the thing - it's about the central message. The Dutch example is about function - the function of the road is to convey people from A to B. Like you I don't like the islands, but the English example is less functional. And, yes, come the day that people leave their cars at home I'll be as happy as Larry, but, in the interim, simply putting a gate across one end of the street, allowing pedestrians and bikes through would enhance neigbourliness rather than - as in the Dutch example - diminish it. For (I'm guessing) one hundredth of the cost.

I don't have a problem with the breadth of tarmac - I simply have a problem with cars going along that tarmac at speeds that make walking, or playing football or cricket on it hazardous.

The funny thing about the Dutch cycling strategy is that it is also a strategy for the making car travel very convenient - hence the ghastly roundabout plan somebody showed us a little while ago
 
In your own words then Dell - show me the drawing. What would your version of this street look like? I know what this would look like in the UK with our planners - that cycle path would be converted to car use.

Since its clearly a residential street I would remove the cycle lanes and road markings, put all the parking at an angle on one side of the street and leave the rest as a shared space with a 20mph limit in which residents and children can mix and motor vehicles are guests.
 

TheJollyJimLad

Active Member
The top photo is the A19 into York, so like many approach roads into towns and cities will carry a 40mph limit.

The bottom one is on the outskirts of s-Hertogenbosch, again serving the same function but with a 50kph limit.

Red Light - what you've described is pretty much exactly what the Dutch would use for Woonerfs (a catchphrase that the IAM seem to have latched on to but misrepresented). CROW has lots of drawings on that.

Dell - You can't call them 'Islands' or 'Pinch Points' but latest CouncilSpeak is 'pedestrian build outs'. And I bet cycling into the centre of that Dutch town is less of a pain than driving.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
The top photo is the A19 into York, so like many approach roads into towns and cities will carry a 40mph limit.

The bottom one is on the outskirts of s-Hertogenbosch, again serving the same function but with a 50kph limit.

Red Light - what you've described is pretty much exactly what the Dutch would use for Woonerfs (a catchphrase that the IAM seem to have latched on to but misrepresented). CROW has lots of drawings on that.

Dell - You can't call them 'Islands' or 'Pinch Points' but latest CouncilSpeak is 'pedestrian build outs'. And I bet cycling into the centre of that Dutch town is less of a pain than driving.
sorry. We do have some pedestrian build-outs from the footpath round here, and they are a bit of a menace to cyclists (although they're doubtless a boon to pedestrians) - but that's the first I've heard of islands being called 'pedestrian build-outs'.

I didn't recognise it as the A19 which I think of as part of my LJoG. As it happens it's a nice road to ride down. Islands (sorry, Pedestrian Pinch Points) notwithstanding.
 

TheJollyJimLad

Active Member
I first encountered 'pedestrian build outs' when corrected by Councillors at a local Cycle Campaign meeting when I was talking about pinch points.

I referred to Steve Coogan in 'The Day Today' when stating that this new term was created by people that have an 'Armitage Shanks Defecation Interface Scenario', as opposed to taking a sh*t

They agreed.
 

theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
sorry. We do have some pedestrian build-outs from the footpath round here, and they are a bit of a menace to cyclists (although they're doubtless a boon to pedestrians) - but that's the first I've heard of islands being called 'pedestrian build-outs'.

That's a "yes and no" thing, isn't it? They make it easier to cross at times, but it's sort of inherently insulting to maroon pedestrians in the middle of the road. I think I've heard them described as "refuges" before, which speaks volumes...
 

Mad at urage

New Member
Hang on - aren't 'refuges' the 'traffic islands' and 'pedestrian build-outs' should thus be 'traffic peninsulas'?
:wacko:

Edit - and does that mean the British equivalent of 'jaywalkers' are 'refugees' ?
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
Hang on - aren't 'refuges' the 'traffic islands' and 'pedestrian build-outs' should thus be 'traffic peninsulas'?
:wacko:

Edit - and does that mean the British equivalent of 'jaywalkers' are 'refugees' ?
(runs screaming from room thinking, for some reason, of roundabouts and Logan's Run http://www.youtube.c...h?v=xSnLU9nyFSA )

(actually there's something very Dutch and Cavinist about the Carousel of Death)
 
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