Team BKool CycleChat

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bobinski

Legendary Member
Location
Tulse Hill
Just a couple of what I hope are not very silly questions. Does the range of the rear cassette impact on the resistance of the unit? I run a 12-28 cassette and wonder if it's worth getting a 32 for the mountain stages. Similarly, does the tyres width have an impact? I am using my commuter based around a disc braked Kinesis pro 6 with 32m tyres on H&Son plus rims so the tyres provide quite a wide cushy ride. Tyres are run at about 90psi. I know on my old Elite elastogel using this bike rather than my Carbon racer with Shimano c24's and 25m made quite a difference but I suppose the active resistance of the unit compensates in a way? It's all about the resistance isn't it?
I know-I am just trying to find an excuse for my less than stellar performance on the Bkool
 

Snaily

Active Member
Lots of Yoga and Meditation over the weekend before your Ant+ stick comes :tongue:

I think I'll skip the yoga and meditation, decided to do some light weights down the pub instead :smile:

Use Bkool on the PC as though you had a dumb trainer and change the resistance manually using Wahoo Fitness on an iPhone, iPad or Android phone or tablet

Geoff

Thanks for the suggestion Geoff, I decided just to do the spindown via the utility just to test all is ok. I'm going to pop out tomorrow and have a look for an ANT+ stick as I am impatient lol
 

BILL S

Guru
Location
London
Just a couple of what I hope are not very silly questions. Does the range of the rear cassette impact on the resistance of the unit? I run a 12-28 cassette and wonder if it's worth getting a 32 for the mountain stages. Similarly, does the tyres width have an impact? I am using my commuter based around a disc braked Kinesis pro 6 with 32m tyres on H&Son plus rims so the tyres provide quite a wide cushy ride. Tyres are run at about 90psi. I know on my old Elite elastogel using this bike rather than my Carbon racer with Shimano c24's and 25m made quite a difference but I suppose the active resistance of the unit compensates in a way? It's all about the resistance isn't it?
I know-I am just trying to find an excuse for my less than stellar performance on the Bkool

I use an 11-25 cassette and find it very good for the mountain stages. I only struggle on the down-hills where I feel I could use higher gearing.
 

kipster

Guru
Location
Hampshire
I use an 11-25 cassette and find it very good for the mountain stages. I only struggle on the down-hills where I feel I could use higher gearing.

The bike I use on the turbo has 11-26, but is a triple at the front 52-42-30. I hate using the 30 with the 26 but it's useful if you need a bit of a rest. The 52-11 is good for the descents :smile: although I tend to spin out at 110 rpm, my little legs just can't go faster.
 
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gbrown

Geoff on Bkool
Location
South Somerset
Just a couple of what I hope are not very silly questions. Does the range of the rear cassette impact on the resistance of the unit? I run a 12-28 cassette and wonder if it's worth getting a 32 for the mountain stages.

No, the resistance is fixed by the Bkool simulator, or as close as the resistance unit can get to it, it is not related to gearing, and the simulator determines what resistance to apply depending on gradient, weight, speed and what it factors in for wind, frontal area, etc. all of which are parameters it decides upon. It's not like a fluid trainer where resistance depends entirely on wheel speed, and changing gear can change resistance.

As the resistance is fixed, having a lower gear can be helpful on a steep gradient, just as in the real world, if you want to maintain a higher cadence. Wgat cadence can you currently find yourself at on the steep climbs? Would you prefer to have a higher cadence? If so, get the lower gearing. I find a 32 tooth cassette useful for the very steepest gradient approaching 20%, just as I would in the real world, as I don't like my cadence to drop much below 70, and I can't maintain the speed required to do 70-80 cadence on 34/28 at 20%. But then I tend to sit and spin rather than stand and grind.

Similarly, does the tyres width have an impact? I am using my commuter based around a disc braked Kinesis pro 6 with 32m tyres on H&Son plus rims so the tyres provide quite a wide cushy ride. Tyres are run at about 90psi. I know on my old Elite elastogel using this bike rather than my Carbon racer with Shimano c24's and 25m made quite a difference but I suppose the active resistance of the unit compensates in a way? It's all about the resistance isn't it?
I know-I am just trying to find an excuse for my less than stellar performance on the Bkool

I would think tyre width matters less than on the road, where claims are made for lower rolling resistance and/or better aerodynamics. On the bkool simulator, rolling resistance is largely virtual and doesn't take into account your tyre width, nor does wind drag, so the main thing that the tyre affects is traction on the roller. A wider tyre may give better traction, but the a narrower tyre would give more pressure down on the roller as the weight is spread over a narrower area. Similarly, a higher pressure in the tyre may give better traction, and hence better power transfer, as unlike on the road, comfort on rough roads or staying in contact with the road surface are not really issues. I have seen recommendations that you run tyres at close to their maximum psi (for the tyre and the wheel, whichever is the lower). To be honest, I would expect these issues all to be marginal, and I would just tend to use what you have got, and perhaps pump it up a little bit closer to it's max recommended pressure.

If you feel the tyre is slipping, perhaps at high wattages or when standing, then more traction could be useful. I know some people use a bungee cord to hold the tyre in firmer contact with the roller!

Geoff
 

BILL S

Guru
Location
London
Is there a van roosbroeck fillip here anywhere? If you're reading this, post back and I'll join you to the Mountain Goats. Thanks.
 

bobinski

Legendary Member
Location
Tulse Hill
No, the resistance is fixed by the Bkool simulator, or as close as the resistance unit can get to it, it is not related to gearing, and the simulator determines what resistance to apply depending on gradient, weight, speed and what it factors in for wind, frontal area, etc. all of which are parameters it decides upon. It's not like a fluid trainer where resistance depends entirely on wheel speed, and changing gear can change resistance.

As the resistance is fixed, having a lower gear can be helpful on a steep gradient, just as in the real world, if you want to maintain a higher cadence. Wgat cadence can you currently find yourself at on the steep climbs? Would you prefer to have a higher cadence? If so, get the lower gearing. I find a 32 tooth cassette useful for the very steepest gradient approaching 20%, just as I would in the real world, as I don't like my cadence to drop much below 70, and I can't maintain the speed required to do 70-80 cadence on 34/28 at 20%. But then I tend to sit and spin rather than stand and grind.



I would think tyre width matters less than on the road, where claims are made for lower rolling resistance and/or better aerodynamics. On the bkool simulator, rolling resistance is largely virtual and doesn't take into account your tyre width, nor does wind drag, so the main thing that the tyre affects is traction on the roller. A wider tyre may give better traction, but the a narrower tyre would give more pressure down on the roller as the weight is spread over a narrower area. Similarly, a higher pressure in the tyre may give better traction, and hence better power transfer, as unlike on the road, comfort on rough roads or staying in contact with the road surface are not really issues. I have seen recommendations that you run tyres at close to their maximum psi (for the tyre and the wheel, whichever is the lower). To be honest, I would expect these issues all to be marginal, and I would just tend to use what you have got, and perhaps pump it up a little bit closer to it's max recommended pressure.

If you feel the tyre is slipping, perhaps at high wattages or when standing, then more traction could be useful. I know some people use a bungee cord to hold the tyre in firmer contact with the roller!

Geoff

Geoff,
Thanks for your very comprehensive reply. I prefer to spin rather than grind away too so I think I will keep an eye out for a cheap 32 tooth cassette. Every little helps!
 

BILL S

Guru
Location
London
A 25?!? Respect !! Even Contador runs a 32 at times.

Well to be honest I never yet came across a gradient on bkool that it couldn't cope with. You have to push hard of course if its a 12% gradient. Anything over 12% doesn't seem to get any harder for some reason.
 

gbrown

Geoff on Bkool
Location
South Somerset
Well to be honest I never yet came across a gradient on bkool that it couldn't cope with. You have to push hard of course if its a 12% gradient. Anything over 12% doesn't seem to get any harder for some reason.

I was reading up and trying to understand the differences between the max resistance on the Bkool and the KICKR. On the Bkool, as you say, when it gets much above 12% it doesn't really get any harder, I found I could just push through and the resistance seemed to give a little, allowing me to make decent progress. On the KICKR this does not happen, and at 17% I almost ground to a halt, had no choice but to change down, slow down and push really hard, eventually having to stand up and grind it out.

I'll try Crowcombe at some point and see how it simulates 24%, or at least see if I can still keep moving the pedals.

I read up on the max wattage of the trainers, and the KICKR claims 2000W to Bkool's 1200W, but it sounds like 1200W should be more than enough, unless there is something I don't understand (very likely).

I suspect the rating should actually be for Torque (N m) rather than Power, and hence the gearing effects the torque you are putting into the trainer. Marketing will always overcome accuracy in these kind of things.

Purely speculation on my part, but high wattages are generally for sprinting, in which case you are in a very high gear and hence the torque applied to the trainer is lowered by the gearing. This may mean that 1200W in top gear is not equivalent to 1200W in bottom gear, not even close. In the lowest gear, the torque that can be applied at the rear wheel is much greater. When I calibrated the powertap, they suggested putting the bike in the lowest gear to ensure the highest torque reading at the rear wheel.

My best guess is therefore that the Marketing is all about the highest sprint power the trainers can cope with, and at the opposite end of the gearing, climbing steeply in a low gear, they are overcome by much lower power figures. After wall, the figure quoted is just a maximum wattage, not a minimum, which means it can cope with that wattage in an ideal situation, but perhaps only when the highest gear is used.

This would also suggest that by using a lower gear you can overcome the trainers resistance easier, so a 32 tooth sprocket is even more of a benefit than a 25 than just the higher cadence would suggest, as it would amplify the torque on the trainer and exceed the maximum resistance sooner. So everyone rush out and get a 32 tooth sprocket and get spinning up those mountains ... :wacko:

So if 1200W is the max in the Bkool, to apply this to a gradient would require adjustment for weight, drag, resistance AND gearing, and seems to top out at around 12%. All else being equal, the 2000W KICKR should therefore be able to properly simulate around 20%.

Of course, this could all be rubbish, based on poorly remembered A level physics from 35 years ago ... :banghead:

Geoff
 

gbrown

Geoff on Bkool
Location
South Somerset
Getting further out of my depth ...

If 1200W is in top gear, and marketing always quote best case scenario, assuming 54/11 gearing the torque should be around 4.6 times higher when in the very lowest gear (say 34/32).

So in 34/32 the maximum wattage resistance would be around 1200W divided by 4.6 or 261 Watts, which is actually fairly close to what I've experienced. At above 260 Watts in the lowest gear the resistance can be overcome.

In 34/25 it would be around 1200W / 3.6 or 333W, 24/28 around 300W.

So anyone who can maintain these kind of powers in the lowest gears will overcome the 1200W resistance.

To overcome 2000W you would have to kick out > 433 Watts in 34/32, which is certainly beyond me for more than a few seconds.

I'm sure the physics is not actually this straight forward, but I would guess it is a good approximation, and certainly seems to match experience.

Geoff

P.S. Torque and Power are related by rpm or cadence, rather than gearing directly, but since gearing effects cadence they are directly related, within the bounds of what cadence a human can maintain, most of us are limited to around 50-120 rpm.
 
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BILL S

Guru
Location
London
Woosh!!! That's way over my head Geoff. I'm only a little bit technical compared to you it seems and I am a Mechanical Designer. I understand torques and power very well but I'm struggling to understand it in that level applied to the bkool and Kickr. One thing I know is that I've seen the highest power figures on my readout when I'm in top gear pushing hard when I've suddenly hit a hill and try to keep the pedals turning at the same speed. Highest constant power readouts are when in the lowest gears going up the steepest hills and I'm convinced the best way to do half hour at the highest wattage is to find the best hill with the most constant and highest gradient preferably around 10 or 12% with the least drops down to lower gradients as that's when the average power really starts to fall. Something I was well aware of last night on Alpe d'Huez when trying to make the required wattage and only just succeeding to get the next active level. I'm not sure it should be like that but it is what it is.
 

gbrown

Geoff on Bkool
Location
South Somerset
I'll freely admit I'm struggling too ... :eek:

I guess it boils down to 1200 watts is a measure of power.

Rotational power is torque (force times distance from pivot) times rpm

Resistance is a force (equal and opposite) and not a power, so they are assuming distance from pivot and rpm, i.e, gearing, and quoting power to look as good as possible, i.e. when sprinting in high gear, which is how most people would relate to it.

At the opposite end of the gearing, the same resistance force would equate to a much lower power, in line with what we experience.

This would therefore equate to a gradient, after taking into account weight etc to get the required resistance force, and the power and gearing to apply enough torque to overcome that resistance force.

So it wouldn't take 1200w in lowest gear to overcome the trainers maximum resistance, and therefore limit the max simulated gradient. My figure of 260W seems about right, though I am sure it is more complex than that.

My head hurts and real life beckons ...

Geoff

P.S. Found this analogy that illustrates overcoming resistance in the lowest gear...

"Put your truck in its lowest gear and rev the engine to pull that stump out of the ground."
 
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