Team BKool CycleChat

[bobinski]

Hi,
I am a recent Bkool user and struggling a bit getting used to the software. I returned to cycling nearly 4 years ago but 2014 was pretty much a washout cycling wise for personal reasons. I had been using an Elite turbo and Trainer road and the Sufferfest videos to try and achieve and maintain a certain level of fitness before then and had done ok. But after last year and having turned 52 I decided to treat myself to the Bkool in the hope it would help me introduce more structure and a different kind of fun to what I was used to with the sufferfest videos. Like I say I am struggling to understand the non intuitive software and its quirks but am also rapidly coming to the conclusion I have a calibration issue. 3-4 % gradients seem to present an unrealistically hard ride compared to real world rides. My power output is woeful! Of course, it could be extremely accurate! I need to check and wonder what the easiest way is to check the calibration. I bought the unit before the latest software update but have not been presented with the offer to update when logged in.
Anyways, once sorted and reassured (or humiliated ) I hope to join some of you online sometime.
Cheers
Bob

 

[gbrown]

I just base it on my FTP testing done at the university hospital being 312watts for an hour with a HR curve according to the power, and the BKool is now basically giving the same HR to Watt comparisons after they calibrated.

Suddenly feeling inadequate ...

Incidentally, do you use Strava? If so, how do you find the power estimates? I would guess that a segment for a decent climb, when you really went for it, should at least give you a ball park. I'd be interested in how close your estimates are to your 312 Watts?

Geoff

 

[Runexeter]

Not done salcombe hill on the road yet but done Peak, but I'm thinking of going from Exeter via Rockbeare, Fairmile, Gittisham, Sidbury then to Sidmouth for Salcombe and Peak then through Budleigh salterton, and Woodbury back to Exeter.
It will make a nice route for you all to have a crack at

 

[gbrown]

We did the Jurassic Classic, which did a lot of the area around Woodbury and Exmouth, and also the longer one, that went down Peak Hill and up Three Mile Climb from Sidbury to Honiton. The descent down into Honiton was fantastic! Also the descent down the main road after going up Salcombe Hill was a buzz, probably the fastest downhill I've let ridden.

All very nice cycling, do you have a camera to do the videos?

Geoff

 

[Runexeter]

We did the Jurassic Classic, which did a lot of the area around Woodbury and Exmouth, and also the longer one, that went down Peak Hill and up Three Mile Climb from Sidbury to Honiton. The descent down into Honiton was fantastic! Also the descent down the main road after going up Salcombe Hill was a buzz, probably the fastest downhill I've let ridden.

All very nice cycling, do you have a camera to do the videos?

Geoff

Sounds good, I'm hoping to do the Classic at some time and the longer one down peak hill is the Exmouth Exterminator which I'm doing in August (my 1st Sportive) will probably do it with some EWCC guys and no unfortunately I don't have a camera, I bet you went well over 40 mph down that.

 

[BILL S]

Lol that would put Bill on an even keel with us.

Its all bunching up at the top these days .
And I think I'll have to do a 30 minute warm up before the next velodrome by the way. .

 

[BILL S]

Hi,
I am a recent Bkool user and struggling a bit getting used to the software. I returned to cycling nearly 4 years ago but 2014 was pretty much a washout cycling wise for personal reasons. I had been using an Elite turbo and Trainer road and the Sufferfest videos to try and achieve and maintain a certain level of fitness before then and had done ok. But after last year and having turned 52 I decided to treat myself to the Bkool in the hope it would help me introduce more structure and a different kind of fun to what I was used to with the sufferfest videos. Like I say I am struggling to understand the non intuitive software and its quirks but am also rapidly coming to the conclusion I have a calibration issue. 3-4 % gradients seem to present an unrealistically hard ride compared to real world rides. My power output is woeful! Of course, it could be extremely accurate! I need to check and wonder what the easiest way is to check the calibration. I bought the unit before the latest software update but have not been presented with the offer to update when logged in.
Anyways, once sorted and reassured (or humiliated ) I hope to join some of you online sometime.
Cheers
Bob

How fast can you average out on the road over a one hour loop without any wind or hold ups? And how many watts does your bkool say you can average over 1 hour? I think it should be possible to workout if there is a bkool calibration problem using this info. Alternatively apparently some of the guys have had bkool calibrate the units for them by linking online.
I agree with you about the software. Not easy at all.

 

[BILL S]

No fair!!!

Actually it's a bit embarrassing to be sitting at the top on such a stage, knowing that you and Darryn, if not others, have done it much better than me, and I was happy to have just got up in under 2 hours, which would have been a more realistic time for me, I suspect.

Geoff

Bet you could do it quicker a second time? Probably helps to not even warm up for that kind of ride and just take it easy at the start and build up.
Its about 5500 ft high after all so great for the fitness whatever speed.

 

[Darryn007]

Suddenly feeling inadequate ...

Incidentally, do you use Strava? If so, how do you find the power estimates? I would guess that a segment for a decent climb, when you really went for it, should at least give you a ball park. I'd be interested in how close your estimates are to your 312 Watts?

Geoff

No, not on strava, I have recently switched to self loops just out of interest as a mate of mine uses it, prior to that I have always used the polar software. Reason for this is simply because I also run and swim, so I need to see my training intensity levels which show me how fatigued I am and if I need to do a recovery session, these are calculated on heart rate measurements as obviously watts are of no use here, this also being the reason I use HR zones when I race.
The comparison I used for the BKool was the Alpe D'huez (or Japan) league ride I think? Approx 1 hour with a generated 300+watts averaged and my heart rate graph laid over the power graph was comparable to the university FTP test of 1 hr. BKool also generated my HR and power zones from this ride pretty close to the generated uni FTP test zones.
Even yesterday for Mont Ventoux my main input for the ride was my heart rate, just to make sure I had some gas left to push it in the last 5km, I guess I"m stuck in my ways of 20years ago!

 

[johnny2names]

Hi,
I am a recent Bkool user and struggling a bit getting used to the software. I returned to cycling nearly 4 years ago but 2014 was pretty much a washout cycling wise for personal reasons. I had been using an Elite turbo and Trainer road and the Sufferfest videos to try and achieve and maintain a certain level of fitness before then and had done ok. But after last year and having turned 52 I decided to treat myself to the Bkool in the hope it would help me introduce more structure and a different kind of fun to what I was used to with the sufferfest videos. Like I say I am struggling to understand the non intuitive software and its quirks but am also rapidly coming to the conclusion I have a calibration issue. 3-4 % gradients seem to present an unrealistically hard ride compared to real world rides. My power output is woeful! Of course, it could be extremely accurate! I need to check and wonder what the easiest way is to check the calibration. I bought the unit before the latest software update but have not been presented with the offer to update when logged in.
Anyways, once sorted and reassured (or humiliated ) I hope to join some of you online sometime.
Cheers
Bob

Hi Bob, I'm also a very recent user of the Bkool and suffered the same frustrations I think. I found my first few rides very tough, and very slow compared to the gradients I was experiencing. for example I did the 20 min FTP test ( 2% slope) and struggled to about 220 Watts, i think 22.5 kph- And I was in bits at the end. I managed to do the firmware update which seemed to resolve most issues- did the same test again and averaged 299 Watts, 28.5 kph! So it seemed to recalibrate a bunch of things. Also my cadence dropped from a silly 130 average to a much more realistic 90 odd. I would say I now experience a comparable output to that of many users on this thread; this might all be slightly generous though, As evidence seems to point the finger at an up to 20% exaggeration of output. Certainly the hills just don't seem quite as hard as in real life ( pre calibration, it was like treacle...) Have a good read of the last 20 pages or so of comments on this thread to get a feel for common issues and possible remedies- It sounds like you might need to request a recalibration with bkool though. It seems the firware update isn't available anymore, for whatever reason. Hopefully it will be available again soon.

Hope this helps

 

[johnny2names]

If you guys are comparing FTP tests on the turbo (following some workout or whatever implemented in Bkool) to tests done on the road, particularly uphill you are already running into problems, before you even start considering the "issues" with the Bkool unit.

Clearly you are correct that it would be foolish to accept turbo numbers as gospel- I think all we are after is something roughly consistent, not something very accurate- that would be too much to expect! However your comment isn't terribly helpful- care to elaborate?

 

[Rob3rt]

Clearly you are correct that it would be foolish to accept turbo numbers as gospel- I think all we are after is something roughly consistent, not something very accurate- that would be too much to expect! However your comment isn't terribly helpful- care to elaborate?

What I am saying is that some people seem to be comparing their results of an FTP test using the Bkool trainer, with an FTP test (or some other undisclosed/unclear method of obtaining a value for FTP) done either on the road or some other equipment/in different circumstances/conditions, then attributing the difference in numbers to the Bkool being inaccurate. It may well be the case that the Bkool is inaccurate (I wouldn't expect the Bkool to be particularly accurate), however, the very nature of the comparison is bound to mislead for various reasons.

Most people will produce less power on a turbo trainer than they will on the road, this is due to various reasons and many people find the difference to be quite considerable, ~10% is not uncommon.
Many people will produce slightly more power uphill than on the flat for the same duration.
Power production will vary from turbo trainer to turbo trainer due to the particular trainers properties, for example you will probably find a difference in power production between a low inertia turbo trainer and a high inertia turbo trainer
Power productions may vary on the same turbo trainer, with different settings.

In all of the above, I am referring to the riders ability to produce power, not the method of measurement, the above assumes the same measurement method is used in all cases (for example a powertap).

For example, someone in the thread has a powertap, if they do a 20 minute flat out effort up a 2% gradient on the road, on a flat section of road, on a Cyclops Fluid2 turbo trainer and then on the BKool, taking power data from the powertap, they will still most likely end up with 4 different results due to the different test methods!

In addition to all of the above, the test protocol used will have an impact on the results, you should follow exactly the same protocol every time. If you are doing a 20 minute effort and then subtracting 5% in order to estimate your FTP, you must precede the 20 minute effort with an all out 5 minute effort.

If you are mixing both test methods and measurement devices, i.e. powertap on road, Bkool trainer indoors, you are not only varying the test method but also the measurement device, as such you can't tell if you are experiencing a legitimate variance in power (likely to some degree), or an inaccuracy in the respective meter (also likely to some degree). In order to start to understand the limitation of the Bkool trainer, you need to start to detangle these effects.

I think some of you could do with picking up a copy of Hunter Allen and Andy Coggan's 'Training and Racing with a Power Meter" book, it should be quite helpful.

 

[Add]

What I am saying is that some people seem to be comparing their results of an FTP test using the Bkool trainer, with an FTP test (or some other undisclosed/unclear method of obtaining a value for FTP) done either on the road or some other equipment/in different circumstances/conditions, then attributing the difference in numbers to the Bkool being inaccurate. It may well be the case that the Bkool is inaccurate (I wouldn't expect the Bkool to be particularly accurate), however, the very nature of the comparison is bound to mislead for various reasons.

Most people will produce less power on a turbo trainer than they will on the road, this is due to various reasons and many people find the difference to be quite considerable, ~10% is not uncommon.
Many people will produce slightly more power uphill than on the flat for the same duration.
Power production will vary from turbo trainer to turbo trainer due to the particular trainers properties, for example you will probably find a difference in power production between a low inertia turbo trainer and a high inertia turbo trainer
Power productions may vary on the same turbo trainer, with different settings.

In all of the above, I am referring to the riders ability to produce power, not the method of measurement, the above assumes the same measurement method is used in all cases (for example a powertap).

For example, someone in the thread has a powertap, if they do a 20 minute flat out effort up a 2% gradient on the road, on a flat section of road, on a Cyclops Fluid2 turbo trainer and then on the BKool, taking power data from the powertap, they will still most likely end up with 4 different results due to the different test methods!

In addition to all of the above, the test protocol used will have an impact on the results, you should follow exactly the same protocol every time. If you are doing a 20 minute effort and then subtracting 5% in order to estimate your FTP, you must precede the 20 minute effort with an all out 5 minute effort.

If you are mixing both test methods and measurement devices, i.e. powertap on road, Bkool trainer indoors, you are not only varying the test method but also the measurement device, as such you can't tell if you are experiencing a legitimate variance in power (likely to some degree), or an inaccuracy in the respective meter (also likely to some degree). In order to start to understand the limitation of the Bkool trainer, you need to start to detangle these effects.

I think some of you could do with picking up a copy of Hunter Allen and Andy Coggan's 'Training and Racing with a Power Meter" book, it should be quite helpful.

I don't think many of us have ever even tried an FTP test on the road, I know I certainly haven't. And, in general, we are finding that our power output is exaggerated by the BKool, and not the other way round.
Also, I don't think there is ANYONE here who is under any illusions as to the accuracy or consistency of either our individual, or collective BKool units. Unless Bradley Wiggins is secretly amongst us, and has hit hard financial times, I think we are all appreciative of an affordable entry level machine, into the world of VR training, but fully accept that the price comes with a trade off against quality! Until my unit broke, I was in the process of forging a loving and potentially lasting relationship with mine!

 

[BILL S]

How fast can you average out on the road over a one hour loop without any wind or hold ups? And how many watts does your bkool say you can average over 1 hour? I think it should be possible to workout if there is a bkool calibration problem using this info. Alternatively apparently some of the guys have had bkool calibrate the units for them by linking online.
I agree with you about the software. Not easy at all.

Perhaps Rob3rt was referring to my comment above where I have suggested that it should be possible to say whether the bkool unit was wildly out by comparing a road test result with bkool readout. I am aware that under normal circumstances this would be useless but I still think it should be possible to use the info (road vs bkool) to find out if a new bkool unit calibration is in the ballpark or not. This would be for someone completely new to bkool who is unsure if their unit is anywhere near correct or not or instead if their fitness is "a bit" off after a few years on the sofa.

 

[Darryn007]

Oooh this is heading into dangerous territory LOL!

My 2 cents-
The only place an FTP test could ever really be done and considered as 'accurate' is on a specifically calibrated indoor testing facility machine, whilst at the same time performing lactate threshold and aerobic threshold tests. Here in Belgium that'l cost you €50 but you leave with hard evidence in your hands.

You then go home and jump on whatever device you prefer for measuring effort, and ride flat out for 20mins - or an hour if you really want to do it as it is supposed to be done, and you then lay your results side by side and allow for the offset.

There is only 1 constant in any test result for me, and that is your Lactate threshold - if you don't show respect to this number it can seriously mess you up as I have experienced a few times haha