Stability

[Notafettler]

PS @silva there is no logic in your luggage set up. Front panniers before putting the basket on the top of your rear rack. It is inherently unstable or I once had a cheap as chips single wheel trailer as long as you don't overload it (mainly height) it was brill. Alas I often did overload it and it started decoupling when overloaded it. Never caused an accident but decided to buy one that was designed for heavier loads. They are popular for touring.

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

You're wasting your time trying to inject any logic into this thread. Silva is hell-bent on grossly mis-loading his bike by putting all the weight high up hanging off the back - and then complains that it makes it unstable and he has to ride more slowly. No shoot sherlock, if I carried the amount of crap around piled up on the back of any of my bikes that Silva does, I would have a job even getting my leg over the saddle to mount the thing and it would want to topple over and spin round whenever stopped unless the bars were held tight and the top tube braced between my legs.
No serious cycle tourist with a big load would dream of carrying so much of it so high up and so far to the rear, as it will make the tail wag the dog and cause instability. They use front panniers and handlebar bags for a very good reason when heavily loaded. Silva should have bought one of those cargo trikes with a box mounted between the rear wheels and piled all his crap into that if he wanted stability with a large rear load.

 

[silva]

I didn't think they did off switch on a dynamo lights? That is the of point of the built-in battery. Anyone ever heard of an off switch on dynamo lights. I can think of an odd occasion when I would want it. I sometimes leave my bike in a wood while I walk the dog, would appreciate being able to switch front and rear light of. I have my doubts that option is available?

My two other singlespeed>fixed gears both had dynamo lights and a switch off that instantly ceased lighting, and kept the energy in the capacitor, instead of wasting it for nothing.
Bought them about a decade ago from NL, Philips Saferide led bikelight 60 dynamo, 78,95 EUR each. This is a link to see it: Amazon product ASIN B0047T6PHCView: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Philips-Saferide-Dynamo-Bicycle-Light/dp/B0047T6PHC

Switch OFF is OFF...
The model is now outdated and probably not available anymore.
At the time I didn't pay attention to the off switch. Until recently I thought it was just normal to have an off switch switching off the light. When I discovered the Son headlight (Edelux II) stayed lit after switching off my first thought was a defect. But it was a designed.... "feature".
I mailed Son about this, answer was:
"The electronics inside our rear light are very minimalistic. Just the
capacitor drains via the LED until its empty. In the future we might also
add a switch-off-timer. A mechanical switch just adds an opening into the
housing, needs much space and might cause new problems. Our main concern
is a very robust, waterproof design."
... not that I ever had water problems with that Philips Saferide model, not with its robustness.
Only complaint I had about it was that the cable left the housing on a place stupidly close to the crown bolt of the bike where it was mounted, causing the cable to get pinched>damaged - I had to use a longer bolt and 1 cm series of nuts and washers.

The main thing is simply this: I can arrive somewhere (shop, home, ..) switch off the light immediately, and then when back (even if that is the next morning) I can switch on the light so that I can see enough to find keys/unlock / etc. Due to the energy stored in the capacitor. Handy. The Son light just wastes that energy and leaves me dark upon return.

 

[silva]

PS @silva there is no logic in your luggage set up. Front panniers before putting the basket on the top of your rear rack. It is inherently unstable or I once had a cheap as chips single wheel trailer as long as you don't overload it (mainly height) it was brill. Alas I often did overload it and it started decoupling when overloaded it. Never caused an accident but decided to buy one that was designed for heavier loads. They are popular for touring.

"Logic"?
How will front panniers carry the kinds of luggage I regularly transport?
Today I bought 16 hardwood slats (likely from a dismantled furniture), together about 20 kilo, 150 cm long each.
I put them through the mazes of the basket at the rear, they protruded about 50 cm behind the rear baskets.
Or look at my avatar pic. How you gonna put that in front panniers?
My avatar pic is abit outdated too, I now have a much bigger basket on my rear rack, but added a small (kid size) backpack mounted between front light and handlebars, on the vertical frame tube, to put my concentrated weight (tools, spare chain etc) in it, as a counterbalance for the weight on the rear rack.
A handlebars mounted bag blocks my view, and I don't want bags hanging low at the front wheel, same reason, and also I want to easily lift /control the front of the bike, needed in city with lotsa crap / things in the way. And with bags hanging low at the front, it's hard to put the bike upside down, my rear bags hang free for that reason, they just lay on the ground when bike upside down. Hanging free at the front makes steering crap.

The thing is, I decide/know the things on site. I don't know on forehand if, and what, I will have to transport. I don't want to mess around with a trailer for an 'in case'. I often don't even know where all I will ride, I just decide along the road, depending on a variety of elements. And thus, I arrived at this bike setup.
It's what it needs to be, to be practical for me. It's logic FOR ME.

The only stability issue I have is, remarkably enough, when there is nothing on top of my rear rack. I need several kilo's there to get rid of hard controllability. When I rode the new bike home I returned to dealer to find out what was wrong, why it was so hard to control / just ride in a straight line. The first thought was the tyre pressure in the 62 mm tyres that I never rode on before. But as it turned out, the reason was the lack of weight at the back.
I rode 2 years with the new bike. Month ago I had to dismantle my rear luggage facilities to allow a transport for crankset replacement. When I got the bike back, and rode with it, that unstable feeling was back just like that. And gone after remounting my stuff. Proved something. Why, I still don't know.

 

[silva]

You're wasting your time trying to inject any logic into this thread. Silva is hell-bent on grossly mis-loading his bike by putting all the weight high up hanging off the back - and then complains that it makes it unstable and he has to ride more slowly. No shoot sherlock, if I carried the amount of crap around piled up on the back of any of my bikes that Silva does, I would have a job even getting my leg over the saddle to mount the thing and it would want to topple over and spin round whenever stopped unless the bars were held tight and the top tube braced between my legs.
No serious cycle tourist with a big load would dream of carrying so much of it so high up and so far to the rear, as it will make the tail wag the dog and cause instability. They use front panniers and handlebar bags for a very good reason when heavily loaded. Silva should have bought one of those cargo trikes with a box mounted between the rear wheels and piled all his crap into that if he wanted stability with a large rear load.

As I just explained, also said it before longer ago, instability occurs WITHOUT weight on top of the rear rack.
I have no problems with getting "THE AMOUNT OF CRAP" where I wanna ride it.
With this same bike, I once carried 4 steel racks each 18 kg home. Dismantled, parts through the basket, passing along the horizontal tube, but most on the rear rack since one has to get his legs around. And some connecting parts with an unhandy shape (didn't fit in the basket frame openings), tied on a mountainclimb alu frame on my back.
Why: because I outfitted the bike to succeed this.

My goals were communicated when I searched for a next bike, and my previous bike - same setup, was shown.
I'm "cycle tourist" nor "serious cycle tourist". I have to get jobs done in all occurring situations. If you don't (want to) know the difference that's your problem not mine, don't bother me with it. Get a cargo trike yourself.

 

[silva]

To illustrate: some notable (aside numerous smaller wide varying kinds of things) stuff I transported last years ending couple weeks, typical distances 20-30km:
- audio amplifier 12 kg
- 9 loudspeakers, heaviest couple 25 kg / unit, usually a couple per ride.
- 12 desk separation alu+textile panels 10 kg each, 160 x 80 x 2 cm, 1 per ride on my rear rack, 12 rides, 2 days with 2 rides.
- some dumbells various weights, easy sitting in the front of the basket on the rear rack.

This aside the stuff everyone needs daily (food,...)
In the past I once carried a folding bike for a work collegue (attached to a frame on my back). He had asked me once, I saw a suiting secondhand on a flea market, bought it, brought it.

It also happens that I just have to carry the daily stuff. I don't know on forehand. Even not that daily stuff, due to out of stock or conservation date not far enough ahead. I also have to get through narrow places / crowd. Alot bicycle dedicated road sections here are despite bidirectional actually too narrow, so in a case of big volume things loaded on the back I have to stop, step aside and wait. That's the benefit of a versatile bike setup: you can fit/handle it upon the need of the moment.
Ex on days with little to do / nothing open, with the same bike I can just go for a ride, still having the 2 backpacks + frame + bag in the basket, it's just 5 kg and it doesn't bother me.

Nothing new, this is since almost a decade, only that I gradually chosed the new bikes so that they held out longer / less replacements / work / hassle so that I have more time for the things that DO interest me.

 

[newfhouse]

I gradually chosed the new bikes so that they held out longer / less replacements / work / hassle

How is that low effort strategy working out for you?

 

[silva]

How is that low effort strategy working out for you?

That's a repeat: 1 instead of 3 drivetrain replacements annually and bike not hijacked anymore by dealers for upto 9 months awaiting a repair. Also no ridiculous upto plain dangerous "cases" anymore, alike at a cup/cone bearing replacement by dealer a ball too much causing the bearing to be pushed open and a rear wheel wobbling like crazy upto (I can give couple dozens bad jobs) after a head tube replacement the handlebar disattaching upon bumping over a road level change governments place to force drivers to slowdown at a crosspoint - rendering me unable to steer, brake resulting in a slow zigzag between cars from two directions. A Do It Yourself can hardly be worser than that no?

The problem with my last bike purchase was that the dealer, despite being aware of my demands, and having seen my used bike at the time, recommended me a frame (the most expensive too) that he shouldn't have recommended, with as main reason the frame design/geometry - it should gave given the chainring more room and the rear tyre clearance less. My 62 mm tyres have over 2 cm clearance at the bottom bracket > chainstay. That's just way too much for road usage, the bike is ment as a travel bike not mountainbike (lotsa mud un33-5-5paved roads).
A +1 on his annual sales list must have been more important than fullfilling customers demands.

Now, 2 years later, most of the problems solved (myself). The single remaining one is the chains tension variation, and this topics stability subject isn't a problem for me since I always keep 2 backpacks, an alu backframe, a bag and a plastic cover (rain) in the basket on top of my rear rack. But I like to know the cause of this instability. With my previous 2 bikes, used alternatively (one in use, one hijacked by dealer - see above) it didn't make any difference whether a few (about 2-3) kg there present of not present. The bike frame sizes are different (the previous frames were too small, one of the reasons to dump them for a new) so I can't compare 1 on 1.
Recently (due to the chainset replacement by dealer) I was required to remove the basket and when back and after mounting the chainring then at testride that instable riding feeling was back just like that. Remounting the basket and placing the stuff in it > again gone. The frame is named "TravelMaster 3+" by an NL producer named "Santos". Their dealer was unable to give an explanation. Not that this is something to rely on, he also wasn't able to explain my 45° tilted hanging chain after a year riding, being shortly later reveiled as a 5 mm wrong chainline.

How is this answer working out for you?

 

[newfhouse]

How is this answer working out for you?

If you’re happy, I’m happy

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

If you’re happy, I’m happy

He's not happy though, otherwise he wouldn't spend so much time continually griping about how the dealer failed to provide a bike fit-for-purpose, despite the fact there doesn't ever appear to have been an agreed written spec.
You could buy a small van with the amount of money that has been wasted cobbling this bike together, and it would do the job of moving bulky & heavy items around more efficiently, more safely, and with a fraction of the effort in a fraction of the time. This has got to be one of the most bizarre threads I have yet encountered on this forum; how to choose completely the wrong type of vehicle for the job and spend a large amount of money achieving nothing..

 

[silva]

...
Only complaint I had about it was that the cable left the housing on a place stupidly close to the crown bolt of the bike where it was mounted, causing the cable to get pinched>damaged - I had to use a longer bolt and 1 cm series of nuts and washers.
...

Btw, addendum to that - recently I had to move the front light 8 cm forwards to make room for a bag under the handlebars, its electrical cable came out of a hole in its support stand, same hole needed to insert an allen key to reach the crown bolt to unmount the stand. I had to file out the aluminium / make the hole bigger in order to make place for the tool without risking cable (insulation) damage.
Note: the light support stand is designed by the bikes designer, not by Son (at least afaik).

Just (once again) to illustrate one of the many flaws that shouldn't have been there at such a bike price tag.
Generally (not bike specific) I learnt one thing through the years: what is advertised most, is the most crap. Durable/lasting components need a long search and often found based on forum posts containing other peoples experiences. The frame design must raise a stability related problem in a case no weight behind seatpost on (and above?) the seatposts level. One explanation could have been a battery mounted there, but as it turned out, the battery isn't mounted there, it's under the seatpost.

https://santosbikes.nl/en/bikes/travelmaster-series/travelmaster-3
This is the current advertisement text:

A crazy amount of luggage

Stable riding behaviour, even with a lot of luggage

You can fit the Travelmaster 3+ with more than 40 kg of luggage, divided over 5 bags. For example, choose a Santos TravelRack XL rear rack (26 kg*) and a Tubus lowrider (15kg). The strong, stiff frame and the steel front fork ride effortless over cobblestones and tree-roots. The fat tires give you lots of comfort.

... it's stable riding behaviour, only with a lot of luggage, hehe.

I found this same rear rack here: https://www.bikefeeling.nl/vakantiefietsen/heren-santos-fietsen/santos-travel-lite-plus

De Travel Lite+ draagt met gemak 55 kg bagage verdeeld over 5 tassen op de Santos TravelRack XL achterdrager (40 kg) en een Tubus lowrider (15 kg). Het sterke, stijve frame voelt zeer zeker aan, ook bij hoge snelheden.

... which was the advertisement text at the time I purchased the bike. Apparently they have changed the 40 kg to 26 kg*, with the * reference suggesting a footnote that isn't there.
Also, that "Santos TravelRack XL", here insinuating Santos made, apparently is also from Tubus: see https://www.santosbikes.com/nl/santos-only/santos-travelrack-xl

De TravelRack XL is de stijfste drager die Tubus tot nu toe heeft gemaakt.

Also this is mentioned there:

Lekker lang plateau

De verlengde voorkant heeft nog een bijkomend voordeel; je hebt bovenop lekker veel ruimte voor al je bagage. Het blijft bovendien goed op z'n plaats met die ronde voorkant waar je een spin aan kunt bevestigen.

... which is what I did: mounting a "tasty alot" "on top" of the rack.
I did precisely what they designed the bike for.
So SkipDiverJohn's comment

No serious cycle tourist with a big load would dream of carrying so much of it so high up and so far to the rear, as it will make the tail wag the dog and cause instability.

... is NOT according to how the bike is advertised.
And also failed the point: the stability problem of my topic here wasn't when too much weight on top, it was when too less weight on top.
So since you apparently ignored / refused to read the subject, I wonder the goal of your activity here, SkipDiverJohn?

 

[silva]

He's not happy though, otherwise he wouldn't spend so much time continually griping about how the dealer failed to provide a bike fit-for-purpose, despite the fact there doesn't ever appear to have been an agreed written spec.
You could buy a small van with the amount of money that has been wasted cobbling this bike together, and it would do the job of moving bulky & heavy items around more efficiently, more safely, and with a fraction of the effort in a fraction of the time. This has got to be one of the most bizarre threads I have yet encountered on this forum; how to choose completely the wrong type of vehicle for the job and spend a large amount of money achieving nothing..

The dealer refused to give me a written brands/models list without that pay ahead.
Getting money without binding promises for the money, the easiest way to "money for nothing and chicks for free". Honest people, don't do that. Social people are willing to help others in order to be helped by others.
Also, ignorant SkipdiverJohn, I didn't and still don't want your trike, your small van, your whatever you come up with next, I wanted a bike suiting my needs, for the money I paid for it.
Either don't bother and ignore this topic, either help, period.

In meantime, from somebody that DID want to help, I received a possible explanation of this instability phenomenon.
The mass distribution, notably the mass center of the front part of the frame, has as as same strong influence on the bikes stability as gyroscopic and trail effects.
It's a scientific paper from 2011.
So there must be a difference between this last bike and the previous.

Goal is to identify the frames specific design failure.

 

[newfhouse]

spend a large amount of money achieving nothing..

We all have hobbies or interests that cost more than an outside observer might consider sensible or worthwhile. In Silva’s case he seems to enjoy the challenge more than the bike, and that’s fair enough. Hours of entertainment for the rest of us

 

[Notafettler]

I have two Santos's Travelmasters, happy with both!
I Use carradice super c rear panniers on the front (Surly nice V2 high loader rack)
And carradice super c shoppers (slightly higher volume) on the back.
I load them most days with logs.
I could put them high up on the rear rack......if I wanted to lose control and ride into a tree!

 

[Notafettler]

Too many people have ridden vast tours, including around the world on Santos's for there to be a problem with stability. Bollocks