Shimano Di* do and do not.

[Mr Haematocrit]

I've just started looking into this, with a view to getting a Ui2 equipped bike at some point in the next few months, but I'm confused by the internal / external issue. is it as simple as internal Ui2 fitting any frame that is designed to run internal gear cables, or is it more complicated than that?

Specifically I'm looking at a Planet X RT58 frame - will this take internal Ui2?

The RT58 frame was not manufactured as a 'Di2 Specific' Frame. You can however enlarge the holes used for the internal cabling and run Di2 internally if you really wish to, this however invalidates warrenty.
I also have a contact who repairs carbon frames who will modify frames to my or your requirements and this is a better option, but equally more expensive.

Ultimately on a raw carbon bike such as the RT58 an external wiring kit would barely be visible. You can then do a small hole at the back of the seatpost to feed the wiring in should you want to hide the battery with a seatpost conversion.

 

[simon.r]

You can however enlarge the holes used for the internal cabling and run Di2 internally if you really wish to, this however invalidates warrenty.

Thanks for that. I assume from what you say that the wiring is a larger diameter than a gear outer cable?

 

[Mr Haematocrit]

Thanks for that. I assume from what you say that the wiring is a larger diameter than a gear outer cable?

The issue is not caused so much by the wiring itself, but by the connector plugs which are a larger diameter.

 

[Mr Haematocrit]

These are the latest batter developments im doing, the first one is a 700mah battery designed for fitment to areo seatposts such as those which feature on the Venge.


The second battery option is a 750mah battery which is ideal for bikes fitted witha traditional round seat post, if you can fit a 'AA' battery up your seat post with a little to spare round the side this battery will fit. So far I have fitted this bartery to a Tarmac, Roubaix, Dogma without issue.


The standard Di2 battery is 500mah as such these are useful upgrades in terms of capacity, you also get a reduction in weight, lose the fugly battery on the frame and in bike charging

I will be doing a step by step shortly showing how to make your own battery, and charger kit but you do so at your own risk. If you get it wrong you can damage your Di2, if you don't wish to do that I am always happy to help.....Keep a look out for that how to coming soon

 

[Dave Young]

Hi there.
Does anyone know if it's possible to run the 4-core 10spd tt brake levers/shifters into the 11spd loom? I know some modding would need to be done connector-wise. But would all 4 inner cores need to be used? are they all wired into both buttons, or are one or more wires defunct?............or do i need to send my shifters back and ponder my next move?

 

[Mr Haematocrit]

If the TT shifters you have are R671 then they are compatible with 10 or 11 speed groupsets and are compatible with the etube system used by the latest shimano Di2 offerings.
If you have different shifters and let me know the part number I might be able to advise further

 

[Dave Young]

Yeah, i have the R671 shifters. They should plug directly into the ew90 junction box, which i already have. The problem arises from having the st7971 brake levers, and trying to make them work with the junction box. I'm thinking the easiest way would be to splice them into the R671 shifters before they plug into the junction box, but i'm not sure whether i can just use 2 of the 4 cores from the st7971 shifters, or whether they need all 4 cores (for earth etc.).

 

[Mr Haematocrit]

You can not use the st7971 shifters designed for 10 speed Dura-Ace Di2 on the 11 speed Di2. The 11 speed Dura-Ace Di2 has more in common with Ultegra than 10 speed Dura-Ace. Ultegra and 11 speed Dura-Ace uses etube and provides the signal for the shifter down the power line, this is why it only features two wires.10 speed Dura-Ace Di2 has a separate power and signal which makes them incompatible.
This is why Replacing the battery on 10 speed Di2 is not exceptionally difficult as you only need to refer to the wiring diagram which features in this thread (and understand it), Undertaking a custom battery for Ultegra or 11 speed Di2 is vastly more complicated and simply replacing the battery does not work.

10 Speed Dura-Ace has no intelligence what so ever, it has no awareness of the components in the system which is what makes it so hackable, as long as you can send a signal and power the device you can connect it to the system. 10 Speed Ultegra and 11 Speed Dura-Ace have awareness, it functions a little like a computer network in the sense that each component has awareness of the others, it is this which makes it less hackable. The fact the protocol dictates that the signal and power line is shared ensure that you can only replace items with parts which have this capability. Standard electrical switches in general do not comply with the demands.

The course of action you need to take (if you really need to do this) is to buy some 11 speed Dura-Ace shifters, break them open remove the circuit board and mechanicals and then break open the st7971 and replace the appropriate parts. This is not cost effective as you are breaking open two sets of shifters and if you make a mistake, its expensive way to learn what you did wrong.

Splicing wires from 10 speed Dura-Ace and introducing them into 11 speed Dura-Ace or Ultegra, is a sure fire way to put a smile on the face of those with the diagnostic equipment such as myself, who charge reasonable sums of money to tell you what you have sent up in smoke or damaged. It will not end well.

My advice would be to not mess around or hack 11 speed Dura-Ace unless you know what your doing, or am willing to accept that the learning curve can be expensive. I would personally advise sending the shifters back and buy the ST-9071 components.

 

[Dave Young]

V for Vengedetta. Thanks for such a great reply. Looks like the st7971 shifters are going back!

Thanks again for saving me a fair bit of money in damaged components, and a lot of head-scratching and swearing!!

 

[Andrew_P]

V4V as the resident expert on all things electronic and Specialized could I seek your opinion?

I am really torn between a Roubaix & a Tarmac, not really seeking your opinion on that but more to do with the frames!! In Expert models they are 4k with Ui2, but I have pretty decent Wheels and Saddle & Bars on my Roubaix so I have been considering buying an S-Works Frameset and buying a Ui2 Groupset which I reckon would cost slightly less combined than the Expert model bike.

The main question is are the S-Works 2013 models suitable for fully hidden battery mounting? How about the 2012 S-Works Framesets? Much difference between an Expert frame and S-Works?

I am sure you have mentioned to me before about extended Demo bike hire, but cannot find the thread, was it Sigma that did this?

 

[Mr Haematocrit]

All specialized concept stores can get the demo/test bikes from specialized, you leave your card deails so they can get the money if you run off, you pay £25 for the pleasure which most will give you back if you buy a bike.
If I was in your position, I woud go with the S-Works frame as they are stiffer and lighter than the standard frame, the layup process is different. Another thing which would make me select S-Works if in a position to do so is that specialized themselves treat sworks bikes differently. Recently specialized had a recall on the forks of certain bikes. Normal bikes with the issue had the forks repaired and modified to address the issue, while sworks bikes got new forks.
MistaPreston from this forum has a Roubaix and S-works Tarmac so it might be worth talking to him about his own experiences long term.
The 2013 bikes most certainly can take hidden battery, depending upon the thickness of the seatpost your using.. basically you need to be able to get AA batterys in the seat tube with a little air around it.
Ui2 however is not the easiest to do batterys for so if your not looking to do it yourself, you will be charged a fair bit for it by anyone who makes kits.

 

[Andrew_P]

seat tube with a little air around it.
Ui2 however is not the easiest to do batterys for so if your not looking to do it yourself, you will be charged a fair bit for it by anyone who makes kits.

Silly question but how do you recharge the system with the batteries in the seatpost?

 

[Mr Haematocrit]

It depends upon how the seatpost battery is implimented. Some require you to remove the seat post.
My seat post battery conversions have in bike charging. It charges through the rear derailuer.

I have attached a pic of the components I use, the long cable connects the battery to the junction box down by the BB, the plug in the middle permits you to remove the seatpost without removing the battery placement. The charger has a plug for the derailuer. The green thing is the one of the battery options I use, these change depending upon the bike and requirement



There are quite a few people around who make and sell kits, but equally you can make your own if your handy wih a soldering iron. Im always happy to advise if asked.

 

[Andrew_P]

It depends upon how the seatpost battery is implimented. Some require you to remove the seat post.
My seat post battery conversions have in bike charging. It charges through the rear derailuer.

I have attached a pic of the components I use, the long cable connects the battery to the junction box down by the BB, the plug in the middle permits you to remove the seatpost without removing the battery placement. The charger has a plug for the derailuer. The green thing is the one of the battery options I use, these change depending upon the bike and requirement

View attachment 21903

There are quite a few people around who make and sell kits, but equally you can make your own if your handy wih a soldering iron. Im always happy to advise if asked.

On the 2013 Specialized bikes with electronic Groups they have hidden the battery, do they stick it in the seatpost? Also I have seen a few adverts for Di2 Ultegra, I always assumed Di2 was Dura Ace?

 

[Mr Haematocrit]

Di2 is what Shimano brand Ultegra and Dura-Ace product, within the enthusiast community to clarify what system you are talking about Ultegra is generally refered to as Ui2, and Dura-Ace as Di2 and Di211 for the 11 speed.
Shimano sell an after market seatpost battery for Di211 but im not aware that Specialized are using that, all the bikes I have seen personally have had the external battery on the bottle cage mount, but the most recent pictures on the specialized web page noticably show this missing. So perhaps they have started doing this, or moved the battery elsewhere.
The bike looks better for it though imho.

Having had my hands on all the systems my personal favorite still remains Dura-Ace Di2 10 speed