Self Build Bamboo Bike Frame Kit Build Thread

[Tangoup51]

My motivation for buying this would be experience, not price.

It's a bit daft to factor in the "price" of labour in what is essentially a hobby project. Comparing a industrially manufactured product with a DIY wood alternative is a bit like comparing ASDA's smart price white loaf (which is essentially 75% sawdust) with homemade organic sourdough bread.

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I was referring to the entirety of bamboo uses as a bicycle frame, not within the confines of a hobby kit. So you might want to check your quoting.

Bamboo frames can be more than just someones "hobby project" on the weekend, they have alot more potential than that.

And as for the price - Do you think its daft to factor that in to the one frame material that is more renewable than the alternatives? Infact, that should be its main selling point, but it's not. - Irregardless of what reason, it's contradictory to the majority of the selling talk of a bamboo frame. - How it's more renewable, cheaper and what not.

Which is, what i was going on back there.

 

[Drago]

Is it more renewable? It'll never be melted down and the material re used.

 

[chriswoody]

Comparing a industrially manufactured product with a DIY wood alternative is a bit like comparing ASDA's smart price white loaf (which is essentially 75% sawdust) with homemade organic sourdough bread.

Technically Bamboo is a grass and not wood.

Looking good. I guess the acid test is if the joins stay together. Do you apply any reinforcements?

So the stage I'm at at the moment is to glue the front tubes together. This provides some strength to the joints, but also helps to keep the front triangle in place while I build the rear triangle. Then once the rear triangle is cut and shaped, that too is glued into place.

After that comes the Lug binding. Essentially I have a large hemp cloth that is cut into bandage like strips and soaked in resin. Then you wrap these around the joins before soaking them in more resin. They extend out from the ends of the frame tubes by up to 10cm. The resin and hemp cloth can be seen in the photo below:

As for the strength, well there are BMX's and mountain bikes out there built from these kits and a friend of a freind, Kate Rawles is currently riding around South America on one. http://www.outdoorphilosophy.co.uk/life-cycle/
There's a lot of info on their website about the lugs and chemicals used. I figure as long as I follow the instructions I should be OK!

 

[chriswoody]

I was referring to the entirety of bamboo uses as a bicycle frame, not within the confines of a hobby kit. So you might want to check your quoting.

Bamboo frames can be more than just someones "hobby project" on the weekend, they have alot more potential than that.

And as for the price - Do you think its daft to factor that in to the one frame material that is more renewable than the alternatives? Infact, that should be its main selling point, but it's not. - Irregardless of what reason, it's contradictory to the majority of the selling talk of a bamboo frame. - How it's more renewable, cheaper and what not.

Which is, what i was going on back there.

I can see what your getting at, leaving aside the cost of this kit for the moment. As you rightly point out, Bamboo is a sustainable, fast growing plant, which in theory should be relatively inexpensive. In theory it should be a viable alternative frame material to the more established materials, however, a quick glance around the net shows that they are still only a niche product. More importantly than that, they do seem to be expensive, probably stemming from the fact that they are quite labour intensive to create? There's an interesting post about joining Bamboo tubes here that makes me feel that mass production would be pretty tricky:

http://bamboobicycleclub.org/bamboo-bicycle-joining-methods/

 

[Tangoup51]

I can see what your getting at, leaving aside the cost of this kit for the moment. As you rightly point out, Bamboo is a sustainable, fast growing plant, which in theory should be relatively inexpensive. In theory it should be a viable alternative frame material to the more established materials, however, a quick glance around the net shows that they are still only a niche product. More importantly than that, they do seem to be expensive, probably stemming from the fact that they are quite labour intensive to create? There's an interesting post about joining Bamboo tubes here that makes me feel that mass production would be pretty tricky:

http://bamboobicycleclub.org/bamboo-bicycle-joining-methods/

Personally, I do not believe labor intensity is a huge factor to why they're expensive. - Carbon would be considerably more tricky (and is) and small Chinese manufactures churn them out at very low prices.

I mean after all, you have no experience working with bamboo before but you're doing a hell of a fine job, just provided with a small crate of the supplies.

That's a good find with the article - I think Hemp with epoxy is the best way to go, the "disadvantages" aren't severe and can be worked around.


But, for any mass producing firm of these bikes (esp around china) I'd imagine they'd use carbon fiber and epoxy. - Two reasons for this,

1) Is that the carbon material they can source can be very cheap.

2) It'd be easier to source the tools & workers with experience in that field of greater quantity.


I actually believe that the reason bamboo bikes are expensive, is because it uses a specific type of bamboo (possibly grown in a specific way) or to a specific age. - So when they tell you it's Bamboo, it's a very loose marketing term, but probably really means "A very hard to grow type of badass bamboo"

But I could be wrong here, but either way you look at it, it's just not as renewable as a material as it might be laid out to be.


**Edit - I just realized that alot of those bamboo articles talk alot about comparing bamboo to other metals and carbon fiber and why Bamboo is superior in strength - but then you realize that the most important parts of the frame is held together with carbon and metal lugs?

 

[Randy Butternubs]

My instinct is that bamboo is probably the most expensive material in terms of labour.

Metal frames take a standard industrial product and can be assembled and welded by machine. Even welding/brazing by hand is quick when you have the right jigs.

Carbon would be considerably more tricky (and is) and small Chinese manufactures churn them out at very low prices.

I don't know much about carbon-fibre construction but seeing as you are still working with a standard industrial product I Imagine it would be relatively quick. Even with wooden frames the wood can be precisely milled to the desired dimensions by machine or you can laminate thick veneers to make custom plywood in whatever shape/curvature you want.

With bamboo though you have to deal with slightly varying diameter from piece to piece and within a single length. Also varying wall thickness and nodal wall placement. Having to allow for this kind of variance usually drives up the build time enormously.

That said; the biggest reason for the cost of a pre-built bamboo frame is probably economy of scale. They are too niche to be cheap.

On a different note: I love the whole cloth-and-epoxy (a.k.a micarta) thing. It's really satisfying and can also be quite beautiful. Here's a shot of a micarta cleat from my friend's Mirror dinghy.

Epoxy is brilliant stuff. Unfortunately is not the healthiest to work with. I'm sorry if you already know this OP but it's best to avoid getting any on your skin and work in a well ventilated area. Above all, if you have to sand it make sure it is fully cured first.

Also, unlike all other glues it cures by an exothermic chemical reaction. This means if you mix up a large quantity in a tub it will heat itself up and set much faster than a small quantity. I've even heard of it melting through plastic containers when very large quantities are made. If you need to keep it runny for a long time you should spread it thin over a large area - the opposite of what you would expect from most other glues.

 

[Tangoup51]

I don't know much about carbon-fibre construction but seeing as you are still working with a standard industrial product I Imagine it would be relatively quick. Even with wooden frames the wood can be precisely milled to the desired dimensions by machine or you can laminate thick veneers to make custom plywood in whatever shape/curvature you want.

With bamboo though you have to deal with slightly varying diameter from piece to piece and within a single length. Also varying wall thickness and nodal wall placement. Having to allow for this kind of variance usually drives up the build time enormously.

That said; the biggest reason for the cost of a pre-built bamboo frame is probably economy of scale. They are too niche to be cheap.

Sadly no, carbon is very hard to work with. You need to apply varying layers of the differing material multiple times over before vacuuming the air out of it and then heating it in especial oven that doesn't allow air to be trapped in th---- look, no one sells DIY carbon frame kits for a good reason, let's put it that way.

And while you raise good points about ensuring you install and properly cut your bamboo in the respective areas - someone with remote experience dealing with Bamboo frames could assemble one with experience alone - these things you can learn to understand. Even if you knew everything about Carbon frames, to build one you would need so much more than experience. - Bamboo, not much more.


Yes, but what is the reason for it being "niche" - why cant it get off the ground? I Contested it was to due with the type of Bamboo used, that isn't as easily obtainable and as renewable as sellers of bamboo frames like you to believe.

I could be wrong, but thats my penny overall.

 

[Drago]

So far you've used care and attention to obtain a neat result. I hope you continue this when wrapping the joints, cos I've seen some right abortions pictured on the interweb.

 

[Gary E]

If you have enough hemp/resin and you're not used to doing this sort of thing, make yourself a practice joint from the length of bamboo you discarded earlier. Take your time and even practice it dry to make sure you know exactly where each piece is going. The good thing about the resin is that it makes a really strong joint that is very tough.

The bad thing is that it makes a really strong joint that is very tough (and it's a bugger to do anything with if you get it wrong) good luck.

I'm really enjoying following your progress and, for what it's worth, I think that for the enjoyment you (and those of us following this thread) are getting it's cheap at twice the price

 

[chriswoody]

I'm sorry if you already know this OP but it's best to avoid getting any on your skin and work in a well ventilated area. Above all, if you have to sand it make sure it is fully cured first.

Please don't be sorry, I did already know but there's no harm in repeating. It is good advice and I'll try to be as careful as I can.

So far you've used care and attention to obtain a neat result. I hope you continue this when wrapping the joints, cos I've seen some right abortions pictured on the interweb.

One of the things initially putting me off this idea was the frames I'd seen that looked like an accident in a parcel tape factory. However there are some frames on their website that have been finished beautifully, with the lugs sanded, filled, polished and painted. I'm going to attempt to go down this route and smooth the lugs and paint them white. Leaving all the beautiful Bamboo on show between them. How successful I'll be remains to be seen. There's some great advice both on their website and in their instruction manuals about how to achieve this, so in for a penny in for a pound.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Sadly no, carbon is very hard to work with. You need to apply varying layers of the differing material multiple times over before vacuuming the air out of it and then heating it in especial oven that doesn't allow air to be trapped in th---- look, no one sells DIY carbon frame kits for a good reason, let's put it that way.

And while you raise good points about ensuring you install and properly cut your bamboo in the respective areas - someone with remote experience dealing with Bamboo frames could assemble one with experience alone - these things you can learn to understand. Even if you knew everything about Carbon frames, to build one you would need so much more than experience. - Bamboo, not much more.

True, but if something requires high skill and expensive machinery (it is "difficult") it means that it is beyond the reach of the amateur but does not mean it is not commercially viable. Vice-versa if something can be done without special tools or skills (it is "simple") it is within the reach of the amateur but is not necessarily commercially viable.

Put another way: anyone can buy a few chisels and a mallet and have a go at woodcarving. It is "simple" (not the best example I know since good wood carving requires tons of skill). Despite this you never see woodcarving on mass produced furniture as it takes too much time and is not perfectly repeatable.

On the other hand: doors. I know how to make a traditional solid-wood door, a (good) veneered door, or a combination of the two. I recently took a chisel to a commercial house door a friend had bought in order to cut the mortise for the lock and the rebates for the hinges. As I dug through it I observed, deduced and was astounded by its complexity of construction. Over the particle board substrate were interlocking, overlapping layers of veneer, solid-wood lipping, inlay where decorative grooves would be machined, reinforcement where the lock would go etc. It was mind-boggling that something so complex was not only commercially viable, but much cheaper than a simpler door made from more expensive materials. With the right tools and the process nailed down it was possible to efficiently turn one standard product (veneer of a precise thickness and precisely dimensioned wood) into another much more complicated one on an industrial scale.

I could be wrong but I imagine that carbon fibre frames can be made fairly cheaply for the same reason despite the skill and fancy machinery involved.

Yes, but what is the reason for it being "niche" - why cant it get off the ground? I Contested it was to due with the type of Bamboo used, that isn't as easily obtainable and as renewable as sellers of bamboo frames like you to believe.

I think you get a vicious cycle where a product is niche because it's expensive and expensive because it's niche. To break the cycle you need big investment, or for your product to be demonstrably better or just different than the competitor's. If, for the sake of argument, bamboo frames are 'just as good' as metal ones but no better and no cheaper then they are going to struggle to get off the ground since metal frames are so established. Carbon fibre became popular due to the (real or perceived) performance advantage.

Belt drive bicycles seem like a good example of this to me. As a layman, it seems like they should not be inherently expensive and that they offer some nice little advantages compared to a chain. I think they haven't become mainstream partly because the advantages over chains are too minor for the products to take off and become cheaper.

You could well be right about needing special bamboo though. I know that the strength of hardwoods varies greatly depending on the growing speed and conditions.

 

[chriswoody]

Thanks for all the kind words and comments folks. It's good to see the thread is of interest to people.

Now I've hit a bit of a major problem and could do with some input. I've been having some problems with the bottom bracket shell. Basically I decided to trial fit an old bottom bracket into the shell to double check which side was the drive side. I really don't want to bond the shell in and then find it's the wrong way round. So I had real problems with the right hand cup (Drive Side) and ended up destroying the shell threads . So the Bamboo Bicycle club sent me out two replacements.

So there I am again checking the new shells and still no joy. So I'm thinking maybe it's the old BB I'm using. So today a shiny new Shimano one arrived, 28mm English Threaded, just like the BB Shell. Gently trying both sides of the shell I've got the left hand one fitting like a charm, but the right hand one refuses to go in. Now I'm a pretty competent home mechanic generally and I'm well aware that the Drive Side (right hand) is an anti clockwise thread. It's even marked on the cups themselves but there's no way it's going in and I don't want to force it. I've tried each shell in both sides, I've even compared photos of clockwise and anti clockwise threads to determine which side is which of the shell.

I'm going to email the Bamboo Bicycle club, but I'm wondering that 3 different shells have the same issue. Is it me? am I being an idiot here and doing something wrong? The photo below shows the right hand cup and the full extent that it will go in:

Any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[raleighnut]

Thanks for all the kind words and comments folks. It's good to see the thread is of interest to people.

Now I've hit a bit of a major problem and could do with some input. I've been having some problems with the bottom bracket shell. Basically I decided to trial fit an old bottom bracket into the shell to double check which side was the drive side. I really don't want to bond the shell in and then find it's the wrong way round. So I had real problems with the right hand cup (Drive Side) and ended up destroying the shell threads . So the Bamboo Bicycle club sent me out two replacements.

So there I am again checking the new shells and still no joy. So I'm thinking maybe it's the old BB I'm using. So today a shiny new Shimano one arrived, 28mm English Threaded, just like the BB Shell. Gently trying both sides of the shell I've got the left hand one fitting like a charm, but the right hand one refuses to go in. Now I'm a pretty competent home mechanic generally and I'm well aware that the Drive Side (right hand) is an anti clockwise thread. It's even marked on the cups themselves but there's no way it's going in and I don't want to force it. I've tried each shell in both sides, I've even compared photos of clockwise and anti clockwise threads to determine which side is which of the shell.

I'm going to email the Bamboo Bicycle club, but I'm wondering that 3 different shells have the same issue. Is it me? am I being an idiot here and doing something wrong? The photo below shows the right hand cup and the full extent that it will go in:

View attachment 380405

Any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated.

I'd try the other one in that side 'gently' the BB cups should screw in easily by hand until the shoulder hits (then you torque em up with the spanner.

I'm thinking manufacturing error where a batch have been 'tapped' wrongly i.e. with the same thread both sides.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

It looks from the photo like the cup is barely going in. Is it screwing in properly a little bit and then firming up or is there resistance from the get go?

If the former then you might have a little bit of thread deformation somewhere on the cup or shell; in which you might be able to force it or get the threads in the shell chased out by a bike shop.

If the latter it might just be that the termination (or start depending on how you look at it) of the cup or shell threads is not very clean. Inspect both for burrs or deformed threads. Burrs can be winkled off and bent threads can be straightened out or filed out. Picks are really useful to have for this sort of thing.

Is it possible you are just having trouble aligning the parts? I find screwing in these kind of relatively broad, shallow things (the cup) awkward and it's easy to begin cross-threading on each attempt. Have you tried screwing the cup the wrong way until you feel/hear a click of the final thread clicking into place, then screwing it in the right way?

 

[Tangoup51]

Don't become overly paranoid and lose your nerve just because it went bad the first time. You say you don't want to force it, but how much "force" have you given it? It will take alot to strip those threads, alot more force than you can put in by accident. Make sure it is as aligned as it can be and give it a fair bootful. - That's my penny anyway.

**Edit: sometimes problems occur when people care and overthink things, sometimes you really need to not care