Segregated, none-broken, cycle lanes on all A roads by 2020

[Richard Mann]

My segregated route down to Cambridge (one of several) is very well used. I have colleagues who I know would not cycle to work were it not for them and kids use them to get to school. There is absolutely no way they would be using the adjacent A1303 for example.

The argument isn't over segregation outside the urban area, where there is generally room to spare, and if you've got a cycling culture, people will happily use the tracks.

The argument is whether segregation is required where space is more contested, and the costs rather higher. Should segregation be the absolute priority where the politics are difficult, or are there other approaches (like slowing the traffic down and painting bike lanes) which are more likely to be viable, and might allow for more-comprehensive provision?

 

[albion]

If you look at old historic concrete 'segregated cycle lanes' you will often find cyclists sticking to the main road.
There is no natural maintenance so broken glass almost always gets to stay as broken glass.

You then get more aggressive driving through drivers not realising that the non used lane is unsuited to road bikes.
You'll no doubt get more motorists signing then cyclists.

 

[Sara_H]

The argument isn't over segregation outside the urban area, where there is generally room to spare, and if you've got a cycling culture, people will happily use the tracks.

The argument is whether segregation is required where space is more contested, and the costs rather higher. Should segregation be the absolute priority where the politics are difficult, or are there other approaches (like slowing the traffic down and painting bike lanes) which are more likely to be viable, and might allow for more-comprehensive provision?

Interesting the argument that there isn't room for segregated cycling. But if the room is required to widen roads, or intodudce tramways or trolley bus systems the room can magically appear.

 

[srw]

Interesting the argument that there isn't room for segregated cycling. But if the room is required to widen roads, or intodudce tramways or trolley bus systems the room can magically appear.

I presume you can provide the examples?

I hadn't noticed a tramway, trolley buses or road widening in any of the places I know. In fact the trend has been the other way - roads have been narrowed.

 

[Sara_H]

I presume you can provide the examples?

I hadn't noticed a tramway, trolley buses or road widening in any of the places I know. In fact the trend has been the other way - roads have been narrowed.

Come to Sheffield - room was made there for the tram and more recently a massive new ringroad likewise Edinburgh have managed to make room for a tram also manchester. I believe Leeds are about to start building a trolleybus system.
We ahve some 24 hour bus lanes in Sheffield. But no 24 hour buses,
There are plenty of schemes going all over the place that find room either for public transport or road building, just not for cycling as a general rule.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

The evidence from around here would suggest differently with regard to enticing folk out of their cars. My segregated route down to Cambridge (one of several) is very well used. I have colleagues who I know would not cycle to work were it not for them and kids use them to get to school. There is absolutely no way they would be using the adjacent A1303 for example. One local developer was even using these links in its blurb to sell houses in one of the villages.

What works on the feeder roads of cities, and towns, with a pre-existing well-developed cycle culture and higher than average levels of modal share is unlikely to work quite so well on the feeder roads of other cities and town's where cycling isn't as popular for reasons which I hope would be obvious... the segregated facility ends and our intrepid cyclist is one minnow in a pond of piranha.

I think the cost thing is a bit of a red herring. There are lots of ways my taxes are being spent I don't agree with - dualling the A11 for example into Norfolk (I'd rather they cobble it!). And the costs of any cycling infrastructure is microscopic compared to such schemes (the dualling not the cobbling!). There are also loads of more imaginative ways funding could be achieved anyway- S106s and changes to landowners stewardship payments to incorporate links between villages and towns are two just off the top of my head.

The cost of things is only a red herring if one has one's head in the clouds surely?

Imagine the perfect candidate NSL DC, ample green sward along its length, no services to be disrupted or moved, no busy feeder roads to be crossed via bridges or underpasses or traffic light controlled crossings. What do you think the cost is of your segregated path per kilometer?[/quote]

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Come to Sheffield - room was made there for the tram and more recently a massive new ringroad likewise Edinburgh have managed to make room for a tram also manchester. I believe Leeds are about to start building a trolleybus system.
We ahve some 24 hour bus lanes in Sheffield. But no 24 hour buses,
There are plenty of schemes going all over the place that find room either for public transport or road building, just not for cycling as a general rule.

When I was there in Central Edinburgh from what I saw the tramlines were being laid down the middle of pre-existing streets which were not being widened.

That's the good thing about trams and trolley buses, they use the existing roads.

 

[Sara_H]

When I was there in Central Edinburgh from what I saw the tramlines were being laid down the middle of pre-existing streets which were not being widened.

That's the good thing about trams and trolley buses, they use the existing roads.

But still taking up room that was previously occupied by cars.
It's not necessarily about finding more space, but reallocating existing space.

My point is, that it is possible. The "theres not enough space" argument doesn't stand up to sensible scrutiny.

 

[srw]

Trams and trolley-buses (especially when the tracks are laid along roads) are also more efficient uses of space than bikes.

Edit:
What I (and I think Greg) mean is that the tram tracks don't take space away from cars or other road users. The tracks are usually built along roads, and those roads become shared space between the trams and the other traffic.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

But still taking up room that was previously occupied by cars.
It's not necessarily about finding more space, but reallocating existing space.

My point is, that it is possible. The "theres not enough space" argument doesn't stand up to sensible scrutiny.

I rather fear it does. The trams in Croydon, my nearest, carry 200+ people. Two hundred cyclists take up a lot less room than two hundred cars true, but a lot more room than one tram. and very little road space, which is after all public space, is segregate for the tram's exclusive use.

 

[Sara_H]

Trams and trolley-buses (especially when the tracks are laid along roads) are also more efficient uses of space than bikes.

Edit:
What I (and I think Greg) mean is that the tram tracks don't take space away from cars or other road users. The tracks are usually built along roads, and those roads become shared space between the trams and the other traffic.

A large volume of the tram track in Sheffield is tram only space.

I'm not making an argument that space shouldn't be dedicated to trams, trolley buses etc. Rather making the point that if there's political will to do it, space can be made.
There was an outcry in Sheffield about the use of public road space being dedicated to the tram system, but its been rather successful.
If we had the same political will towards cycle lanes, we'd find a way - as other countries have demonstrated.

 

[green1]

likewise Edinburgh have managed to make room for a tram

Edinburgh have reintroduced trams, as they had them in the past Edinburgh's Streets are pretty wide.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

Get some training, read cyclecraft. If you're having problems most of it is probably riding technique.

Whatever else you said, I think that particular statement is rather ill-judged. On my 2 hours of free one-to-one bikeability training, despite the fact that the instructor said she felt there was nothing she could teach me that I wasn't already doing, we still experienced 4 episodes of aggressive, dangerous driving and abuse. It does get rather wearing when other cyclists keep saying it's the cyclist's fault, when it is patently obvious that the cause is the disgraceful culture we have on our roads amongst a large number of drivers.

 

[middleagecyclist]

How, are they excluded from the road?

Simple. De facto exclusion. For instance I cycle commute lots, ride a road bike for pleasure, cycle tour, mess on a MTB, blah, blah, blah. Despite being a pretty keen cyclist there are certain roads I will not entertain riding on despite being legally allowed to do so. Just calling them roads does not automatically make them ideal or attractive for cyclists. Now imagine someone new to cycling who is lacking in confidence and skill. Why oh why would they entertain using them?

 

[Richard Mann]

Interesting the argument that there isn't room for segregated cycling. But if the room is required to widen roads, or intodudce tramways or trolley bus systems the room can magically appear.

Well the difference is that trams only run on a handful of routes, so they can use the roads with more space, and if necessary run for a bit away from "urban" streets. Whereas cyclists have this annoying habit of wanting to go everywhere, travel short distances, and prefer to stick to well-populated streets (particularly at night).

Some of the UK's biggest cities probably have the width of street, but they often have a lot of people using buses, a lot of people walking, and a lot of people using cars too. Carving out a good width for a segregated cycle track is a bit too low down the priority list. So alternatives that use less space (getting the traffic to slow down, and providing a painted cycle lane) are more realistic.