running red lights

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S

SportMonkey

Guest
martint235 said:
Oh it's my signature when I'm replying from my mobile phone. It's kind of an in joke cos my GPS system is sh**e and forever sending me in the wrong direction!
rolleyes.gif
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Ah, sorry, it gave me the distinct impression you were driving and using the forum at the same time. :whistle:
 
lejogger

lejogger

Guru
Location
Wirral
martint235 said:
This is where there is a difference between RLJing and other crimes. There are very rare situations where it is safety issue to go through a red light. To RLJ cos no one is around is not a safety issue. To RLJ because you have heavy panniers is also not a safety issue. The law works like this:

1. Are you guilty or not guilty? This is your opportunity to provide evidence that you didn't do the crime. It is also the prosecutions opportunity and obligation to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you did do the crime. In an RLJ case I would expect to see CCTV evidence.
2. Now we've ascertained that you are guilty, you now get an opportunity to provide evidence that you had a mitigating factor in your decision to break the law. This is where I believe there is a huge difference between "there was a stranger in my house and I was protecting my family" and "my panniers are heavy, I would have held up the traffic behind me and been beeped at if I'd stopped"
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I completely understand and accept your points... however you are slightly underplaying my defence. I wouldn't be arguing that "my panniers are heavy, I would have held up the traffic behind me and been beeped at if I'd stopped". That simplifies and trivialises the issue.

It would be more along the lines of that I had sufficient concern that by stopping at the lights I'd have put myself at an increased risk of injury due to whatever issue it was... the large vehicle, or volume of traffic behind wanting to overtake or force me to the kerb etc.
 
martint235

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
lejogger said:
I completely understand and accept your points... however you are slightly underplaying my defence. I wouldn't be arguing that "my panniers are heavy, I would have held up the traffic behind me and been beeped at if I'd stopped". That simplifies and trivialises the issue.

It would be more along the lines of that I had sufficient concern that by stopping at the lights I'd have put myself at an increased risk of injury due to whatever issue it was... the large vehicle, or volume of traffic behind wanting to overtake or force me to the kerb etc.
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But my argument is that you have knowingly put yourself in a position you consider to be dangerous. You are aware of the weight carried on your bike, of the likely traffic behind you and the road condition and yet have persisted in your course of action. Whilst I personally understand your argument, I don't feel it classes as mitigation in the eyes of the law. What would be the effect of stopping at the red light, dismounting, proceeding around the corner on foot to a safe location and remounting for example?
 
C

Cycle_Stu

Regular
Location
Bo'ness
I was walking to work the other day in Glasgow and I saw a cyclist waiting at a red light at a crossroads. The road was downhill and he seemed to make a decision to go for it. If only he'd looked behind him first 'cos there was a police van right behind him :tongue:. Cue the blue lights! He got maybe 30 yards and was pulled over.

Have to admit to having a bit of a chuckle over that one :rolleyes:.
 
lejogger

lejogger

Guru
Location
Wirral
martint235 said:
But my argument is that you have knowingly put yourself in a position you consider to be dangerous. You are aware of the weight carried on your bike, of the likely traffic behind you and the road condition and yet have persisted in your course of action. Whilst I personally understand your argument, I don't feel it classes as mitigation in the eyes of the law. What would be the effect of stopping at the red light, dismounting, proceeding around the corner on foot to a safe location and remounting for example?
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Yes, you are right, in the eyes of the law it wouldn't be mitigating circumstances... I accept that getting off and walking would have been the correct option in any circumstance rather than a RLJ.

I don't think the aim of my argument has ever been to say that laws are wrong and there should be a legalisation of RLJing for cyclists in certain situations like some of the posts today. I merely hoped to show that however illegal, there may be situations that the most hardened of RLJ opponents may sympathise with if personal safety on the bike were called into question, that while wrong in the eyes of the law, may be understood by a rational human.

I think I've managed that to a point, while you have upheld your legal arguments... warm handshakes all round?!:thumbsup:
 
martint235

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
[QUOTE 1442696"]
Ok, mini poll time. Who here has ever had to RLJ because not doing so would have resulted in the following vehicle hitting you?
[/quote]

Nope not me. Although a driver just missed me last night as I stopped at a red. I had a brief chat with them at the next set of lights and offered to send the video evidence of them running a red light to the police.

Just in case anyone thinks of me as a "holier than thou" type, I should confess to going through an amber this morning purely because I wasn't paying attention and didn't have time to stop when I noticed it
 
S

SportMonkey

Guest
[QUOTE 1442696"]
Ok, mini poll time. Who here has ever had to RLJ because not doing so would have resulted in the following vehicle hitting you?
[/quote]

Complete guess work. You can't say there'd be an accident because one didn't happen.
 
S

SportMonkey

Guest
[QUOTE 1442699"]
That's another no then.
[/quote]

It can't be anything but a no, it's impossible. The joys of causality.

It's a bad question to be fair. You should be asking about fear of being involved in an accident. You ever heard of Bad Science or Freakonomics?
 
B

BentMikey

Rider of Seolferwulf
Location
South London
I have, I was on the motorbike and had to roll into the intersection to make space for the moton with smoking tyres and an inability to stop before me and before the stop line. Long time ago though.
 
A

Angelfishsolo

A Velocipedian
Location
Cwmbach, South Wales
Never. [I was hit whilst in a queue on the M25 though lol (my Audi 80 wrote of a Merc Convertable :biggrin:)]
[QUOTE 1442703"]
It's not a bad question, because it's led you on to the next point. Which is, if it is impossible to pay whether an accident could have happened, then those claiming it as a reason for RLJing are basing the reason on nothing.

As it stands, it's not an impossible question at all. If you jump out of the way of an approaching car and it passes through the space you were standing in then there's your example.

The easier one would be to ask who here has ever been hit up the chuff while waiting at lights?

Anyone?
[/quote]
 
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