Skip Madness
New Member
I'll try to get the final lap on to YouTube by the end of the day. Although it'll mean having to put up with Giorgia Bronzini being called Guderzo by Hugh Porter.
Road World Championship 2010
- Thread starter Flying_Monkey
- Start date
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Skip Madness
New Member
But if they'd been trying not just to bring back attacks but instigate and follow them then they would probably have been up the road, too. They were in a position to do that all day until they let Arndt and Cooke get away. For that they have only themselves to blame. Ultimately they still had a great chance with Vos, but they'd have exponentially bettered their odds by taking the race to the other teams. The Italians only decided to settle for a sprint when they'd tried attacking and knew that Bronzini would still get to the end.
We aren't in a position to know. You can propose that they elected not to attack to keep the race together for Bronzini. You may be right. My view of their attacks is that they just didn't have enough in the tank today, on a course that was flat with 2 vicious, but short hills, to do anything of any real tactical value. More usefully, they may well have towed Bronzini back on when she was dropped, but rightly, we rarely had shots which could have shown this.
Again this is not a complex race decision, it is the final position. If you can't do anything yourself, at least do something for somebody who might.
Skip Madness
New Member
My point is that the Italians gave themselves every chance, using a multi-talented team to chisel away at different areas. The Dutch had a similarly multi-talented team and had the opportunity to do the same but they didn't.
I understood your point. My counter is that the position of the Italian team and Dutch team, this championships, is entirely different. One has to rely on events and the other has the World number 1 and hot favourite, backed by riders that mean that every other nation can play them off. A failure to appreciate that allows for only a very shallow appreciation of what was a fantastic race, with a surprising result, that will keep us glued to our screens in other races. No matter how much out of it you are, there is always a chance of a win.
The Italians have been highly successful at the Women's World Championship road race in recent years. Last year and in 2007 the Italians deserved the win their elegant and well crafted team-work deserved. In 2010 they achieved the win via fortune placed in their path by the stupidity of others. The Italian team did not have the riders to have options in terms of tactics. They rode a simple race.
That race was a fantastic tactical battle, that with 1km to go left 5 riders all with a very genuine chance of winning. 4 had complex permutations to keep re-processing throughout the race. 1 had the most simple tactics. It is why road racing is so much more than any other discipline in cycling.
I'd agree about the differing pressures - making decisions is far more difficult than having to simply play the one card you've got. But this is where it differs - in cards, you simply have one card and play it; there's no skill in the playing. But Bronzini still had to do what she could do. And she did - she was there when it mattered, and sprinted as it mattered. Timing was spot on. On the other hand.....a hand well played, but still not sufficiently perfect to make it happen. By the time they got to the last 500m, Cooke didn't have many, if any, more cards to play than Bronzini.
Skip Madness
New Member
Bronzini had to rely on events, but Italy didn't. If Bronzini hadn't hung around, Cantele and Guderzo would have had their own chances.
I don't really understand what the bit in bold means.
I presume you're referring to Canada? If Bronzini was reliant on Canada for the win, surely Vos was equally reliant on them for second? How is that good tactical nous from the Netherlands? And as I said before, I don't accept that Canada were stupid - they were desperate and did the only thing that could give them a chance of winning anything.
The Netherlands rode the simplest race of all - "everyone try to get it back together for Marianne" when they had an embarrassment of riches for a course like today's. Italy were hopeful of Bronzini surviving, but they weren't relying on it.
(No idea how this will turn out - cannot get the multi-quote editor up!)
I said :"..and the other has the World number 1 and hot favourite, backed by riders that mean that every other nation can play them off. .."
The last two number 1's since 2003 have been Cooke and Vos. Vos, throughout her career has had a strong Dutch team at every World Championships. Whilst Cooke was number 1 she had nobody effective in the last couple of laps of the World Championships. A rider could be sent up the road in the early part of a race and, whilst favourite, nobody would think that Cooke would do a one person chase from 100km to go. 30km to go and things are very different and within the last 10km, everyone would look at Cooke. Vos is in the same position in the closing stages and the benefit of a foil is so obvious. However, at 100km to go, the disparity between the assets of the Dutch team and everyone else is such that everyone would look to the Dutch to chase.
I said "....In 2010 they achieved the win via fortune placed in their path by the stupidity of others. ...."
Moving on - I had another look at the last 5km in slow mo. A super race. Even with the help of the Canadians, Vos could not win. Vos made a suicidal effort to get up to Cooke and Arndt and in doing so was weaker than either Johansen and Bronzini. Bronzini came past her and Johansson was passing her. Vos definitely left her racing line and impeded Johansen on the one side, pushing her so that she impacted into a spectator on the barrier. So maybe Cooke and Arndt had judged it right, the only way Vos could catch them was if she went way too early ? Vos' effort opened an 3 sec gap back to those that were on their wheels with 400 to go !!! (- beaten by 2 lots of stupidity ?) Bronzini and Johansson were never going to get up to Cooke and Arndt unless somebody took them up there.
Whatever our debate, the narrowest of margins in a fantastic race finish.
They did indeed have chances. However, as their form on the day became apparent, it was obvious that those chances were very slim. The riders, unlike us viewers, would have been in the position of knowing that before the race and able to form their tactics appropriately prior to the race.
I said :"..and the other has the World number 1 and hot favourite, backed by riders that mean that every other nation can play them off. .."
The last two number 1's since 2003 have been Cooke and Vos. Vos, throughout her career has had a strong Dutch team at every World Championships. Whilst Cooke was number 1 she had nobody effective in the last couple of laps of the World Championships. A rider could be sent up the road in the early part of a race and, whilst favourite, nobody would think that Cooke would do a one person chase from 100km to go. 30km to go and things are very different and within the last 10km, everyone would look at Cooke. Vos is in the same position in the closing stages and the benefit of a foil is so obvious. However, at 100km to go, the disparity between the assets of the Dutch team and everyone else is such that everyone would look to the Dutch to chase.
I said "....In 2010 they achieved the win via fortune placed in their path by the stupidity of others. ...."
Absolutely. Vos had lost the race. The Canadians, sacrificed themselves entirely, to put riders from other nations back in contention. It was incredibly stupid.
Correct assessment of the position. You are entirely right, it was not good. As Arndt and Cooke rode away, Vos was looking at either being forced to waste her sprint chasing or settle for winning the sprint for 3rd. However it was not a position created by the Dutch, it was a position created by the puncture. without the puncture, Vos could have dawdled with the chasers until Van Vleuten re-joined would then create an entirely different dynamic. Johansson would be the rider with most to lose and would then have to drive (with the Canadians?) to stop Van Vleuten making contact, or take her chances.
The only chance they had of winning anything adopting that tactic, is if there was a big pile up of the riders in front of them who they had towed up to the break and they swerved around them all.
Skip, Van Vleuten and Vos have been in breaks this year, and done their double act. The plan was, “get it back for Van Vleuten and Vos, for the final lap”. The execution was the complex part. Who to commit, how, when, how hard? Adopting that plan committed the Dutch team to the major responsibility for the race.
Moving on - I had another look at the last 5km in slow mo. A super race. Even with the help of the Canadians, Vos could not win. Vos made a suicidal effort to get up to Cooke and Arndt and in doing so was weaker than either Johansen and Bronzini. Bronzini came past her and Johansson was passing her. Vos definitely left her racing line and impeded Johansen on the one side, pushing her so that she impacted into a spectator on the barrier. So maybe Cooke and Arndt had judged it right, the only way Vos could catch them was if she went way too early ? Vos' effort opened an 3 sec gap back to those that were on their wheels with 400 to go !!! (- beaten by 2 lots of stupidity ?) Bronzini and Johansson were never going to get up to Cooke and Arndt unless somebody took them up there.
Whatever our debate, the narrowest of margins in a fantastic race finish.
Excellent debate resal and SM. Thank you. As I said before, the sort of perspectives I love to read. That is, from people who know what they are talking about. No rights or wrongs, just a matter of interpretation.
And on that note of 'interpretation', who'd have a team manager's job. Trying to get a win for the team when you have a few riders in the team capable of doing it, depending on the course and how it pans out on the day. You look at the course, you look at your team's strengths, you try to take into account individual team member's desires and their egos... and you formulate a strategy. Maybe you get it right, maybe it goes right for you... or maybe at the end of it you think 'hmmm, maybe we should have done it a different way'.
It's easier to say it in hindsight but calling it before hand, and adapting during, that takes some tactical nouse. I'm always in awe of someone that knows their stuff.
And on that note of 'interpretation', who'd have a team manager's job. Trying to get a win for the team when you have a few riders in the team capable of doing it, depending on the course and how it pans out on the day. You look at the course, you look at your team's strengths, you try to take into account individual team member's desires and their egos... and you formulate a strategy. Maybe you get it right, maybe it goes right for you... or maybe at the end of it you think 'hmmm, maybe we should have done it a different way'.
It's easier to say it in hindsight but calling it before hand, and adapting during, that takes some tactical nouse. I'm always in awe of someone that knows their stuff.
Skip Madness
New Member
Vos needn't have been in that position, though - Van Vleuten's puncture was unlucky and it obviously hindered both her and Vos' chances, but at the time of the puncture Vos still had Tabak, Bruins and Gunnewijk with her. They lost touch on the climb, which it's doubtful would've happened to Van Vleuten, but if they'd been cannier earlier in the day then those riders would've been fresher. Plus there's Blaak who gave some almighty turns in bringing back attacks - a rider who should've been there with Vos come the end too, and who could've stayed with that group had she not killed herself earlier. The Dutch had the chance to be controlling the race with 100km to go. Get Tabak and Visser attacking, push for breaks and let the other teams do the chasing. With two laps to go they could have had four highly dangerous riders ready to work the others over. That puncture kicked a fair dent in the Dutch chances, but they'd over-exposed themselves to risk.
It's not just been Vos and Van Vleuten, though, it's been pretty much any two Nederland Bloeit riders of your choice. True that Vos and Van Vleuten have done it more than any others. Regardless, it's precisely that last point - that it was a plan which committed them to the responsibility for the race - which was what made it short-sighted. They could have given the field the run around, instead they adopted tactics which let everyone else make them run around.
... or if Whitten told Willock, "You know, I feel OK, get this back and I might get a top ten." Likely? No. Stupid? On the biggest day of the year for promoting women's cycling, with teams looking at slots to fill, sponsors looking at potential exposure, and above all the only remote chance of placing well in what many regard as the biggest one-day race in the world (Not me, I prefer Flanders and the Flèche)? Definitely not.
Most certainly in agreement there. This race delivers year after year.
Attempting to answer the points as they appear - I just think that firing riders up the road is not the option the Dutch wanted to take on the basis that sometimes they might get the strongest rider with weaker ones, but more often. the other teams would just negate exactly that by soft pedaling and letting the break come back and let a new combination form, that had the other nations' riders stronger than the Dutch rider who is in the break.
The Dutch find themselves in a difficult position that is unique within road cycling for either sex.
Of the Canadians tactic - the outcome is the proof that the motive was not based on logic. Maybe one of them will pick up a contract from a team based on 16th place and "well I was lying 3rd with 1.5km to go". As you point out. The pair of them obviously had a thought something like that pass through their brains.
The Dutch find themselves in a difficult position that is unique within road cycling for either sex.
Of the Canadians tactic - the outcome is the proof that the motive was not based on logic. Maybe one of them will pick up a contract from a team based on 16th place and "well I was lying 3rd with 1.5km to go". As you point out. The pair of them obviously had a thought something like that pass through their brains.
Quote from Vos in Dutch Der Telegraph - from cyclingnews -
How did it happen this year? “If I had sprinted later, then the escapees Judith Arndt and Nicole Cooke would have sprinted for the gold, “ she told the Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf. “So I took off at 300 metres from the finish and I felt the Italian Giorgia Bronzini coming up. I had no choice.”
No, and if she had gone with Arndt and Cooke, one of them would have gone up the road and the other would have sat on her, forcing her to chase. and after she had chased theother one would have gone. Vos knew that and that is why she waited. Vos is favourite but that brings with it real problems, which is why, once a year Cooke could never win the World Champs when she was number 1 in the World, without any team around her.
How did it happen this year? “If I had sprinted later, then the escapees Judith Arndt and Nicole Cooke would have sprinted for the gold, “ she told the Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf. “So I took off at 300 metres from the finish and I felt the Italian Giorgia Bronzini coming up. I had no choice.”
No, and if she had gone with Arndt and Cooke, one of them would have gone up the road and the other would have sat on her, forcing her to chase. and after she had chased theother one would have gone. Vos knew that and that is why she waited. Vos is favourite but that brings with it real problems, which is why, once a year Cooke could never win the World Champs when she was number 1 in the World, without any team around her.
Keith Oates
Janner
- Location
- Penarth, Wales
A great finish for Thor but what a tough race that was, those laps with the steep hills were killers. I think all of the riders earned their money in todays race!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Thanks for that chaps, it's on Eurosport now with about a lap to go, I guess I can go to Tescos now eh
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WTF?
I watched it live - am I supposed to wait several hours before commenting on the result just in case someone hasn't seen a recording yet? Why come in to a thread called Road World Championship 2010 if you don't want to know the result?
Thanks for that chaps, it's on Eurosport now with about a lap to go, I guess I can go to Tescos now eh
[/quote]
WTF?
I watched it live - am I supposed to wait several hours before commenting on the result just in case someone hasn't seen a recording yet? Why come in to a thread called Road World Championship 2010 if you don't want to know the result?
