Road Cycling Safety BBC radio 5 discussion

[Nigeyy]

I'd say it's a combination of some really bad road design, poor road signage and (just my opinion) a greater proportion of distracted drivers. I should state running a red on a bicycle is -as far as I know -completely illegal in all the States.

Road signage over here isn't <cough> quite as good as the UK. For example, there are no warning flashes on the road or often no road signs for hazards ahead such as traffic lights, yields or stop signs. Traffic light signals are very inconsistently placed. Generally, drivers are far more distracted and can be quite impatient without regard for any sort of road rules (this is a hard one to explain; generally people over here just don't seem to take driving seriously or abiding by the rules -it just doesn't seem part of the culture). Also add in the fact that you can take a left (actually a right, but you know what I mean) on a red light in most states (if not all, not sure about that).

What this means? If I get to a traffic light at a crossroads with poor warning and am exposed, I don't want to be more in a primary position of the lane waiting on red to go straight if I can help it -that soccer mom drinking her Dunkin' Donuts coffee whilst chatting on the mobile and applying her makeup (yes, I've seen it) coming up behind me in that people carrier doesn't fill me with glee. I also don't want to be in a secondary or even poorer secondary position as traffic can take the near turn on red, coupled with the fact it wouldn't be out of the realms of imagination for someone to still take that turn and hook me when the light turns green, so I think a strong primary is a good idea.

It means I have a choice: cycle through red only after carefully looking for cars with nary a car in sight in the cross street, or wait in one of several bad positions at the lights. I figure I'd rather take my chance on going through the red. Fortunately, I tend to avoid any junctions like this on purpose -so like I said, I do it very, very rarely -but I do come across one now and again.

I should also add I cycle in the Boston area, which has a reputation as having some of the worst drivers in the country!

No flak Nigeyy . I have absolutely no experience of cycling in the US so I would be wrong to disagree with you. I would be interested though for you to explain a situation where you feel running a red would help. Is it because of the difference in road traffic laws/rules?

 

[stoatsngroats]

Allow cyclists time and space to move off when the green signal shows.

This part really needs shouting from the rooftops.........is this advice, or part of the instruction for ASL's....?

Good post BTW

 

[garrilla]

All the text in italics is lifted from direct.gov.uk is verbatim from the Highway Code.

That's why I call it "178" its easy to shout at the motons: "178, Highway Code, Rule 178" The downfall is if they still have that tattered 1972 edition their dad gave them!

 

[HF2300]

... do I try and race a car across the lights then yes, but only from the point of view I start much quicker than a car...

I really don't understand this. I can see that in very heavy slow traffic it might be worthwhile, but generally speaking I can't see the point. The number of times I see cyclists cut through to the front of a queue of traffic - often dangerously - just to get away first on the red & amber, when all they achieve is to arrive at the other side of the junction with all the traffic bunching up behind them because they're only faster for the first 100 yards.

Just seems calculated to encourage close overtakes and irritate idiot drivers, and to show the same 'must get ahead' mentality motorists are often criticised for.

 

[nigelnorris]

In a confessional sort of spirit I'm going to own up so that someone should tell me how to do this properly.

On my way home through rush hour (well half three / four o'clock actually so I have schoool run, busses, lorries the lot) Birmingham I have to cross two busy roads (one is the Stratford Road for anyone who knows Brum). I have to turn right off that at a set of lights onto a secondary road, but the oncoming traffic is insane especially since drivers in Brum only really consider red lights to be advisory. When the lights turn green for me to go (and the cars behind me, there's a cycle space like mentioned above to camp up in while the lights are red) there's no way to go anywhere, there's just traffic coming straight at me instantly which doesn't stop till the lights are red. Not only that but when the lights do turn red the traffic doesn't stop coming on until the last second when traffic starts coming across from the green lights anyway. So every time I try to obey the lights I get caught in the crossfire and it's not a happy experience.

But then I noticed that when the lights go in the other direction they lock up all four on red so that the pedestrian crossings work and people can safely cross the junction on foot in any direction. So what I've started doing is timing it so that I hit the lights at that point, and use the hiatus to just amble into the middle of the whole junction while all the lights are red and there's no traffic, sit there till all the pedestrians have gone and the pelican lights go red - so now everything is stopped, then just cruise my way through. Same for the other crossing though that one is straight ahead.

By my reckoning that means I've gone through each of the junctions with 8 sets of lights simultaneously on red. Am I a bad person?

 

[marinyork]

Did anyone hear the phone in this morning on BBC 5 live radio with Nicky Campbell?

Here are some of the issues that were brought up by the discussion

Do you run red lights?
Cycle the wrong way up one-way streets?
Give hand signals when turning?
Do you find when at lights traffic is very aggresive when the lights change to green?

Sounds like a pretty immature debate to me although the people organising the story probably geared it towards that? None of those issues are high up my cycling safety list. It sounds a complete biased load of nonsense and they got 3 village idiots to take part in it.

 

[Olly]

I came across a new (for me at least) peril of the RLJ cyclist this morning. Pulled up at the lights, next to & slightly behind cyclist already in the ASL. Said cyclist then decides to RLJ & the car behind starts to follow him... only to realise, just in time (phew) that I'm not moving anywhere. They then look & lights & see why.

That has happened to me AS A DRIVER!!!!
I was coming off highbury corner roundabout at the lights with 2 bikes in front of me. Both moved off and i followed only to be shouted at by a pedestrian as i went through the red light!B).

Its amazing how easily it happens!
I consider myself a good driver AND cyclist but a moment taking somthing for granted and look what happens.
scary stuff!

 

[ferret fur]

I really don't understand this. I can see that in very heavy slow traffic it might be worthwhile, but generally speaking I can't see the point. The number of times I see cyclists cut through to the front of a queue of traffic - often dangerously - just to get away first on the red & amber when all they achieve is to arrive at the other side of the junction Yes, this is the point: By accelerating across the junction faster than the following traffic you (hopefully) avoid a left hook. If you are mixed in with the queue you lose that ability to escape the cars behind you: They get a 'must get ahead of the bike' idea and wham, they turn left across your bows with all the traffic bunching up behind them because they're only faster for the first 100 yards.No matter where you start in the queue the traffic will have to flow past you if it is moving faster than you can cycle.
r.

:

 

[HF2300]

Yes, this is the point: By accelerating across the junction faster than the following traffic you (hopefully) avoid a left hook. If you are mixed in with the queue you lose that ability to escape the cars behind you: They get a 'must get ahead of the bike' idea and wham, they turn left across your bows

Perhaps I misread Summerdays' post; the way it was phrased just seemed to imply that 'must get ahead' attitude, and that's the sort of attitude I see in a lot of cyclists round here.

Anyway, don't you avoid the left hook by correct road positioning and not tucking into the kerb?

No matter where you start in the queue the traffic will have to flow past you if it is moving faster than you can cycle.

True, it will - but that's just normal traffic flow. It's not the same as unnecessarily compelling generally faster flowing traffic to pass and repass you though.

 

[ferret fur]

Anyway, don't you avoid the left hook by correct road positioning and not tucking into the kerb?

.

To a degree: But I would argue that the point at which an impatient motorist is at their most impatient is approaching a set of green traffic lights which might turn red!!! If they are 'held up' by a cyclist in primary they are more likely to try and get past at an innapropriate point. ie try & left hook. To me, getting to the front is basic risk management. Eliminate as many risk points as you can and one of these is traffic which you can't get away from (because of the car in front) but which is impatient to get past you. Most of my urban riding is central Edinburgh, so I don't accept the argument that I'm slowing other traffic down. Most of the time I am getting through town faster than a car can. That is (mainly) why I cycle. They may repass me, but sure as eggs is eggs I will be going past them in the near future.

 

[magnatom]

Nigeyy, I see your point, but I don't think it really applies here. Of course it could happen, but I would suggest that the risks of running a red light are greater than being rear ended.

Would motorcyclists not be at the same risk or rear-ending?

 

[magnatom]

By my reckoning that means I've gone through each of the junctions with 8 sets of lights simultaneously on red. Am I a bad person?

Of course your not. You are just trying to figure out a safe way to negotiate a difficult junction.

However, I have been faced with similar situations in the past. I takes a bit of guts and gile, but you just have to make yourself as visible as possible. The traffic coming towards you isn't a threat (despite how it feels). You are directly in their view. So long as you take a good primary, the traffic behind has a good view of you as well.

The timing does seem a bit of a problem, but again you are in the middle of the junction (from what I can make out). So, as long as you are signalling in a visible way, the traffic has no excuse for not seeing you.

Of course, on junctions like this, it is easier said than done. Could you change your route to avoid it? That might be the best option. My route to work is not as direct as it could be, just to avoid places where I wouldn't be comfortable.

 

[ComedyPilot]

Do you run red lights? NO
Cycle the wrong way up one-way streets? NO
Give hand signals when turning? YES
Do you find when at lights traffic is very aggresive when the lights change to green?NO

Do you run red lights? NO
Cycle the wrong way up one-way streets? NO
Give hand signals when turning? YES
Do you find when at lights traffic is very aggresive when the lights change to green? NO

 

[purplepolly]

I (confession here) go the wrong way down a one-way street in order to use the level crossing at the end of the one-way bit. The alternative is rat-run road bridge where motorists always try and overtake before the blind summit.

I'm not loosing too much sleep over this as it used to be two-way but was changed to force motorists to use the bridge which has made it more difficult for cyclists. And as it used to be two lanes they could just as easily have left a cycle lane in on the route, there's more than enough space.

 

[HJ]

I'd be happy to go on radio, however, I'd just be called a media tart!

Come on Mags, face up to it yous is just a tart anyways ...

Being serious though, a lot of the stuff you have done in the past, media wise, have been really positive...